Jack, perhaps you have an idealised view of healthcare in the US. Or perhaps I have a rather Dickensian one. Yes, people are entitled to emergency care, but only enough to stabilise them before they get turfed out again. And £75 a month is a lot of money to a lot of people. I know a few US students who have been in a situation of having to choose between eating that week or paying for antibiotics.
Of course the NHS isn't free, everyone knows that the money has to come from somewhere. The same goes for every other public service. But you won't get turned away because you can't afford the treatment.
You don't understand the US - its not a homogeneous population like many European countries.
Lol have you been to London? It's about as multi cultural as anywhere! It's great. Why is the fact it is multicultural relevant to people having unnecessary (in my opinion) access to guns?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isoverity
They have 50 - 70% (blacks) illegitimacy rates which means kids grow up in unstable homes and often angry about it. This is where a lot of the gangs and shooting come from and gun laws don't stop them.
I do not agree that illegitimate children grow up angry and go on to commit criminal activity. I actually find that comment very hurtful.
It seems from your posts, Jack, that you are saying that it is the ethnic groups that are responsible for the gun crime? Is this the case or have I miss-understood?
My thought is that forcing mental health care on an unwilling participant is counter productive. Treatment of mh issues requires the cooperation of the person that your treating.
Jack, perhaps you have an idealised view of healthcare in the US. Or perhaps I have a rather Dickensian one. Yes, people are entitled to emergency care, but only enough to stabilise them before they get turfed out again. And £75 a month is a lot of money to a lot of people. I know a few US students who have been in a situation of having to choose between eating that week or paying for antibiotics.
Of course the NHS isn't free, everyone knows that the money has to come from somewhere. The same goes for every other public service. But you won't get turned away because you can't afford the treatment.
You don't get turned away in the US for most things and people in the UK get turned down too - even for simple and cheap things like cortisone shots.
I don't have an "idealised" version of US health-care having once spent 5 years strait on antibiotics (for infection undiagnosed for 3 years) and seeing doctors every two weeks.
My impressions of the NHS on the other hand come exclusively from UK media and medical organisations.
'Patients forced to live in agony after NHS refuses to pay for painkilling injections'
Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.
The Government's drug rationing watchdog says "therapeutic" injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not know.
Lol have you been to London? It's about as multi cultural as anywhere! It's great. Why is the fact it is multicultural relevant to people having unnecessary (in my opinion) access to guns?
I do not agree that illegitimate children grow up angry and go on to commit criminal activity. I actually find that comment very hurtful.
It seems from your posts, Jack, that you are saying that it is the ethnic groups that are responsible for the gun crime? Is this the case or have I miss-understood?
London might be multicultural (as is New York - if you want to visit a real American city don't go there - might as well stay in London lol). In any case a cities population and a national demographic are different - as are the cultural and historic contexts that accompany them.
Illegitimate children whose father have abandoned them absolutely grow up more angry which is why over 70% of prison populations came from homes with no father.
Minority groups lead in most crime categories (except for white collar crimes like embezzlement etc).
Prior to the 1960's illegitimacy for black births was around 24% and is now over 70%. After the 1960's, social programs like welfare made it profitable to have as many out of marriage children as possible because the government paid more money for each. People had more money with illegitimate babies than if they worked.
Girls 13, 14, 15 started getting pregnant in great numbers and were left to fend for themselves. That also made them angry and its not uncommom to see a young teen mother beating the daylights out of a young child on the streets. Of course after 50 years white illegitimacy has risen to around 40% - with the added social and economic burdens that they bring.
Males especially will tell you having a father that left them was a huge factor in their lives. Many join gangs expressly to have a sense of family they never had growing up
My thought is that forcing mental health care on an unwilling participant is counter productive. Treatment of mh issues requires the cooperation of the person that your treating.
I think there is some kind of legal provision for when people are literally unsane and a danger to themselves and others. For quite awhile teachers and fellow students knew something was seriously wrong with this guy but nobody took action. I am positive his parents new something was very wrong and didn't act.
Here is video he made that got him kicked out of college. Its obvious the guy is not sane
'Patients forced to live in agony after NHS refuses to pay for painkilling injections'
Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.
The Government's drug rationing watchdog says "therapeutic" injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not know.
And you don't think that maybe, just maybe these are rare sensationalised stories because I don't know, that's what the media needs to sell papers?
I like the NHS, I like knowing that no matter what my financial situation I will get the medical treatment I need. I don't like hearing about the many American people on this site who can't afford mental health treatment, I don't like reading about someone who couldn't afford to see a doctor to prescribe the inhalers they needed to avoid hospital and emergency care, etc etc.
And on the topic of minority ethnic groups committing more crime, is not just slightly possible that the fact that equality of opportunity has not yet been fully realised in the US, and that (taking one group) a significantly disproportionate amount of black people live in poverty and have been hit harder by the recession and still on average earn less than white people for the same jobs? Although crime is never the answer, if I were in that situation I'd be angry too. Having a black president has not made America an equal society and feeling like because of something you can't control you already have odds stacked against you is not going to help with anger.
'Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.'
['There is only one thing we say to death. Not today'.']
'We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell.’ – Oscar Wilde
‘It’s hard to dance with the devil on your back.’ Sydney Carter
I've been following this thread but didn't feel like commenting as I have a feeling I will only get myself annoyed lol
But on this UK Vs US thing that seems to be appearing I feel I have to comment... The media exadurates and twists things, in all countries, each day I read multiple different papers just to try to limit the bias, but even then it's impossible to do entirely. Though it is great fun to see the discrepancies between the way the same event is written and the "facts" expressed in different papers.
To be honest unless anyone has lived for an extended period of time in each country I don't think anyone can make an accurate comparison.
I mean my partner and I are both from the UK and both live here currently, but our veiws of the country in many ways are rediculasly different, and this differing of perspective could be even greater between different countries. Where I am currently living I am the only British person (and one of only 3 white people) in my bulding, and one of the few people on my street who's first language is English, but just over a mile away where my partner is living everyone (almost) is white and british. Also I have known over 30 people who had their first child before the age of 16, whereas my partner doesn't know anyone who had a child before the age of 23. I also know a lot of people who dropped out of school with no qualifications at all, some of whom due to absolutly awful events in their lives, some of them have ended up essentially living a life of crime, but others would never consider doing anything illegal. I have commited crimes too myself, not gun crimes, but I have been arested for knife crime. My partner, however, doesn't have a single friend from school who didn't go to university.
So from my point of veiw I could say that teenage pregnancies, multiculturalness (is that a word?) and other bad things are very common here, but from my partners point of veiw they would be very rare.
According the media either end of the sprectrum could be true, depending on what you read/watch/listen to. There is this HUGE grey area in between that the media ignores
Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her;
If you can bounce high, bounce for her too,
Till she cry "Lover, gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover,
I must have you!"
Thomas Parke D’Invilliers
Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her;
If you can bounce high, bounce for her too,
Till she cry "Lover, gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover,
I must have you!"
Thomas Parke D’Invilliers
shadow-light - since I've been in this forum 7 years I have some idea of what things are like in UK. My main claim has always been that - in the scheme of things - they are not as different as some people think. Indeed the white, underclass "chavs" in UK are remarkably similar to the gangs of rap kids growing up in projects in US - and each of them are not so different from the gangs of kids in the projects in France.
Demographically I just claim that on national scale numbers are different.
"The largest ethnic minorities in Britain are those of Caribbean or African descent (875,000 people). The next largest ethnic groups are Indians (850,000 people) and Pakistani and Bangladeshis (650,000 people). Overal, ethnic minority groups represent just under 6 per cent of the population of Great Britan. "
6% is quite small compared to over 30% in US and that makes for some very large trends that out of country media tends to overlook. I've lived in outside New York City (in a radius of 23 million) my whole life and not once have I seen anyone pull out a gun no less see anyone get shot with it. However, I know areas I could go to and see just that in short order. Some areas have such potent gangs police dont even go there anymore. For black males homicide is the #4 cause of death. Homicide is not even in top 10 for white males.
The reasons for this are not physcial but cultural and environmental. Nor is it due to the oft blamed racism because the violence and family deterioration all came after civil rights laws and were exacerbated by government programs designed to help that backfired severely.
That said, there are some physical differences and certain populations are predisposed to certain diseases like diabetes. In New York State 1 in 7 is either diabetic or pre-diabetic - whcih of course means kidney failure amputations, blindness etc. - all very expensive and very influenced statistically in ways Sweden won't experience.
Personally I wouldn't think of the members of a forum as a good statistical sample. But I am not a fan of anecdotal evidence and may be biased due to that, over half my family is Irish and some of my closest friends are also Irish, but as I've only visited once for less than a week I would never say that I knew anything about Ireland other than the numbers I can read in books and the geography I can see on maps, neither of which give me a full idea of the reality. I also do not fully trust statistic, I think they can be manipulated too easily. So once again I am slightly biased.
To be honest I don't think that "chavs" are that dangerous, there are far more dangerous groups hanging about, the chavs are just publisiced the most.
I'm going to avoid comment on all the healthcare related stuff in this thread as I get a bit overly passionate in my defence of the NHS and will only end up getting overly irriated/annoyed at things, and will probably just annoy everyone else.
Anyway I am not saying that some of the issues raised are not factors (factorss though not the only/main reason) in such areas of crime, but I do feel that this UK Vs US argument/debate is ulikely to get anywhere *shrugs* similar ones have come up on this site before and they often just go round and round in circles - which is not to say that discussions which are unlikely to have a conclusion shouldn't happen, just that I feel a real comparision would be nigh on impossible, esspecially an objective one as people get very defencive and almost emotional about these sorts of topics
Last edited by shadow-light : 15-01-2011 at 08:57 PM.
Personally I wouldn't think of the members of a forum as a good statistical sample. But I am not a fan of anecdotal evidence
I don't just go by the forum members. Because I was news editor here for almost 2 years I got in the habit of reading as many or more UK papers than US papers. I don't read my local as much as I read the Times and Guardian. I also watch Prime Ministers Questions every Wednesday and see what the debates of the day are. From here I know more about things like the NHS because I read from so many peoples experiences of it.
I've seen NHS do a lot of good things - including put our webmaster back together lol. A problem is NHS is flirting with bankruptcy if it isn't already. In the US an NHS style medical system will absolutely bankrupt us (more) because of other factors. This is why most people in US now want the recent health-care bill repealed or defunded. It did nothing to fix original problems (expense)
I don't just go by the forum members. Because I was news editor here for almost 2 years I got in the habit of reading as many or more UK papers than US papers. I don't read my local as much as I read the Times and Guardian. I also watch Prime Ministers Questions every Wednesday and see what the debates of the day are. From here I know more about things like the NHS because I read from so many peoples experiences of it.
I've seen NHS do a lot of good things - including put our webmaster back together lol. A problem is NHS is flirting with bankruptcy if it isn't already. In the US an NHS style medical system will absolutely bankrupt us (more) because of other factors. This is why most people in US now want the recent health-care bill repealed or defunded. It did nothing to fix original problems (expense)
If I could just comment on the soaring drugs bill, the NHS used to be able to buy drugs in for much less than the American market could pay for them, purely because of it's collective bargaining power. Our government has just changed this system under the guise of localism so that separate parts of the NHS have to cut individual deals with pharmaceutical companies, this is leading to rising medication costs and it's not a failure of the concept of universal healthcare, it's a failure of our current governments plans to fragment the NHS and open it up to competition from private healthcare.
I think there is some kind of legal provision for when people are literally unsane and a danger to themselves and others. For quite awhile teachers and fellow students knew something was seriously wrong with this guy but nobody took action. I am positive his parents new something was very wrong and didn't act.
The question is not can you commit (called sectioning by you brits) someone, but should you? Yeah, it seems obvious from what his college classmates said that he was insane. But what good would it have done to commit him? If somebody doesn't want help, then they can do a lot to thwart efforts at treatment.
Cooperation or not it might have prevented the deaths and injuries he caused.
However, mentally ill people are far more likely to be victims of crime than be convicted of it. People can and frequently do experience delusions about people harming them, or them harming people without it leading to them actually doing anything. We can imprison people up for just having thoughts about these things, but then you end up incarcerating people who would not have gone on to commit a crime. It's a lot more complicated than "the nutter should have been locked up" and to be honest it's depressing to hear that kind of rhetoric on this website of all places.
Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her;
If you can bounce high, bounce for her too,
Till she cry "Lover, gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover,
I must have you!"
Thomas Parke D’Invilliers
However, mentally ill people are far more likely to be victims of crime than be convicted of it. People can and frequently do experience delusions about people harming them, or them harming people without it leading to them actually doing anything. We can imprison people up for just having thoughts about these things, but then you end up incarcerating people who would not have gone on to commit a crime. It's a lot more complicated than "the nutter should have been locked up" and to be honest it's depressing to hear that kind of rhetoric on this website of all places.
I know they are, but if for example I was ill enough to be considering killing other people or something equally damaging I would hope that people would take decisions out of my hands and keep myself and others safe until I was in a better state.
'Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.'
['There is only one thing we say to death. Not today'.']
'We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell.’ – Oscar Wilde
‘It’s hard to dance with the devil on your back.’ Sydney Carter
Cooperation or not it might have prevented the deaths and injuries he caused.
You can closely monitor somebody while they are in the hospital, but once they get out they can resume whatever plans that they had before they we're admitted. Besides, how do you decide who could become violent in the first place?
