Re having some kind of phone - But what about emergencies like a child illness? Or even simple regular doctors, dentists etc etc appointments. And sorting out benefits, getting work [you need to have a contact number]. I'm sure there's other reasons phones are important too.
Phones of whatever type are far more essential than a TV and attached TV licence, I believe. Especially in these days of there being very very few phone boxes, and of those very few are in tact!
See, different people have different priorities.
I have a phone, but it is rarely used outside of a work context. I have other means of reaching my friends. Although, to be fair, I don't watch much television either.
Not 'fine' But certainly the focus of the punishment should be treatment to help them not act on the voices commands, rather than just fine/jail time. They should def cover costs/give is back if they get caught, but I think helping the person understand why they took it, and how not to do it again should be the first port of call.
And even for those who do if repeatedly... like, it's bad yes but there is a reason, and maybe with help they could work it out and if they wanted to stop, make some changes
I don't think I ever said that every single criminal of any kind should be sent to jail... However, they have committed a criminal offence, and that needs to be recognised and acknowledged by everyone involved. There should be some means of punishment, but rehabilitation as well.
However, who is going to give this help that they need? It won't be the criminal justice system, and it won't be social services.
You know nothing about me or my life or my history. I think the only ones being judgmental are those assuming I know nothing about that sort of life. I may not have lived every single scenario, but I sure as hell know poverty and desperation.
Zero hours contracts can, in some cases, be very useful. It ultimately depends on the type of contract (they aren't all the same!) and the sector you are in, as well as your own circumstances. I have a friend paying a mortgage who works on a zero hours contract, she makes about the same as me in a month on full-time. It'd be better if she was in a guaranteed-income role, but she makes it work for her.
The benefits can be a hassle, I agree, but so is not getting Tax Credits until you are twenty-five. The world isn't perfect
You don't need to take it personally unless you want to. I never suggested that you didn't know poverty; heck you may well have been in poverty yourself; but this doesn't mean you can automatically understand all poverty from a personal perspective 'on the ground'. Knowing poverty is one thing, living each and everyone's individual lives is impossible. I am not going to say because I 'know' mental ill health I can empathise with everyone; I can't; I can attempt to, but I wont know what a person's life is like and the options running through their mind; so I wont judge them for their actions when it comes to basic survival. I am not talking about stealing non-essential items; food, water and shelter are basic human needs and that is what this thread was about.
I'm glad it works for her, I never said they [zero hour contracts] couldn't work, but they do mean income can be unpredictable [as do a lot of 'trades'] what I am trying to demonstrate is that life is not predictable and income is the same. Not everyone has reserves built up, or people who can lend them money.
When it comes to stealing food due to eating disorders I am not sure what to comment; from the perception of the sufferer, they may not feel they have a choice. I would hope common sense would prevail and that a person would get help rather than be prosecuted immediately. I can understand however that repeat offences could well result in prosecution; its hard because in the instance that there were risk of prosecution, one would hope this would be factored into deciding if the person has capacity to understand the ramifications of their behaviour and thus if they should be treated in a secure environment.
If someone cant afford a TV licence then surely they should get rid of the TV?
sorry, I will get back to serious debate in a second but a bit of this has made me think of this scene (which I can't find on youtube as it fails) so had to point it out:
Quote:
Bart: Uh, say, are you guys crooks?
Fat Tony: Bart, is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family?
Bart: No.
Fat Tony: Well, suppose you got a large starving family. Is it wrong to steal a truckload of bread to feed them?
Bart: Uh uh.
Fat Tony: And, what if your family don't like bread? They like... cigarettes?
Bart: I guess that's okay.
Fat Tony: Now, what if instead of giving them away, you sold them at a price that was practically giving them away. Would that be a crime, Bart?
Bart: Hell, no.
I think one issue with a lot of this is that n 99% of cases there ARE other options that a person could take, but in many cases the person has become so desperate or ill or whatever that those options cannot be seen by them
In which case education and help to seek these other options is the answer, not straight forwards prosecution. Stealing is wrong, but in some circumstances not something that isn't understandable for that person 'on the ground' viewing their life/options, with whatever their skills, understanding and ability to ask for help they have at that time. We are not all on a level playing field when it comes to healthy cognition.
You don't need to take it personally unless you want to. I never suggested that you didn't know poverty; heck you may well have been in poverty yourself; but this doesn't mean you can automatically understand all poverty from a personal perspective 'on the ground'. Knowing poverty is one thing, living each and everyone's individual lives is impossible. I am not going to say because I 'know' mental ill health I can empathise with everyone; I can't; I can attempt to, but I wont know what a person's life is like and the options running through their mind; so I wont judge them for their actions when it comes to basic survival. I am not talking about stealing non-essential items; food, water and shelter are basic human needs and that is what this thread was about.
You were the one throwing out terms such as judgemental and lack of empathy, not me. Of course I can't live every single circumstance, but I do know about them. I have lived in poverty all my life, I still live in one of the most deprived areas in Scotland, working in a job where all I do is help people.
I, however, will judge someone for breaking the law.
Quote:
If someone cant afford a TV licence then surely they should get rid of the TV?
You would think, but everyone is different. I also think that if you can't afford something you shouldn't buy it, but that's just my way.
Let's look at this in a slightly different way:
Rather than the ubiquitous loaf of bread, it seems to be the more 'luxury' foods that get shoplifted, such as bacon and other meats. The person is still the same mother with a child, but do you view them in the same way? Meat is expensive, and they can live without it.
^I personally would steal what I needed to feed my family if I didn't have money. I'd steal the 'cheap' food and get the rest from food banks if I could. I'd only do it out of necessity. I guess it's just about taking what you can. Like it's easy to steal loose bread rolls rather that a packet of them, so I'd do that even if it was more expensive that way.
You can own a TV and not pay a license, you just need to tell them it's for DVD's only. So if you had a TV but ended up in difficulty, you can stop paying your TV licence, or sell the TV.
I think that first of all we need to question why people are stealing food and how this can be fixed. It's sad that some people reach these desperate measures.
I do think it's important to budget food and plan meals, but things can happen unexpectedly.
I am good at making batches and making something out of little money. Last year, however, through no fault of my own I lost my flat. My landlord decided to sell up so I had to move, and it had to be quick. I am unable to work due to mh problems. Working was definitely out of the question ( I was sectioned not long after moving home). But I had to arrange moving. It was out of my control. My benefits where stopped, and it took a while to get them going for the new flat, since getting council housing is not easy, and I had to get another private let. The only reason I didn't starve was because my parents helped me with food etc. But anyone else without that support could have ended up with no food whatsoever. People get desperate and resort to stealing and we need to figure out how these problems can be fixed. What infuriates me is the disgusting amount of food supermarkets throw out when there are people struggling to survive. Can't this be used to help people?
What I'm saying is, things can happen, and that includes people who work, where something can happen unexpectedly putting them in a position of having no means to buy food.
Yes, stealing is wrong, but some people just don't see any other way out and all circumstances should be looked at. And if you are starving, you can get desperate and unable to think clearly. What would you do in that situation?
Last edited by Sketchy : 25-09-2013 at 08:39 PM.
Reason: oops, typo mistake
I think if i was in that situation I would steal the food it wouldn't be anything expensive but I would make sure I enough meals out of it and something that will last a few days.
Have you ever confused a dream with life? Or stolen something when you have the cash? Have you ever been blue? Or thought your train moving while sitting still? Maybe I was just crazy. Maybe it was the 60's. Or maybe I was just a girl... interrupted.
I know what it's like to want to die. How it hurts to smile. How you try to fit in but you can't. How you hurt yourself on the outside to try to kill the thing on the inside. I tried groups, didn't work out just made my depression a lot worse.
I can't speak for everyone who steals, but when I used to steal food how much it cost was not a factor that I considered when picking stuff... I would just take what I could, half the time pre-packaged sandwiches (which I don't even like) as they are usually near the door and easy to conceal... However, they are only meant to be one meal and even if you tried to stretch them out they didn't last long... in an ideal world the cheaper stuff that you can stretch out into meals would be better, but that's usually further into the shop and in larger packets or in areas with too many members of staff or cameras.
some people may target the "luxery" items... but I would wager that most who do have started to almost enjoy the thill of stealing... hate to say it but even when it starts out as a means to survive there is a thrill element to it that can get a hold of many and they get almost hooked on the risk of taking more and more difficult things... I saw it happen to many people when I was homeless, I was lucky that I never got that deep into it, but even I felt it a little and got tempted to push the boundries a bit at times
^ from what I understand, that's part of the reason that prisons are so overcrowded. Because they know that they will get 3 meals and a roof over their heads so they get themselves arrested.
I've seen the same in hospitals.
A nurses once gave me a load of yogurts and fruit when I was discharged from a general hospital because I had become very unwell from not having any food. I didn't ask for it, but I know people do get themselves admitted and I've heard of some people actually hurting themselves badly to have a lengthy hospital stay.
Sorry if none of that made sense.
I'm fine! Totally fine. I don't know why it's coming out all loud and squeaky, 'cause really, I'm fine!
I dislike the food stamps idea... Mainly as housing benet fully covers very few peoples rents so they have to "top it up" with some of their JSA, which if it was in food stamp form wouldn't be possible... And surely people would just sell the stamps for money anyway
^When I was a student nurse, the homeless people near the hospital would come in with a minor injury, the drink the alcohol hand gel a) to get alcohol and b) to have to stay in overnight for a bed and food.
It's horrid.
And yes, this was an area with an active community outreach. They had thrown out food/donated food to give out, but not enough of it to go around.
I don't think it said in the article why his benefits were stopped. If he was sanctioned then that may be why he has no money. We need to have some sort of 'punishment' for those who do not comply with the requirements placed about them in order to receive 'payment'. Yes, of course it is sad that the man is destitute, but if it is his own fault then he needs to take responsibility.
With the rise in food banks and other charities (mainly church/religious-led, I'll add), people have more places to turn than they did only a few years ago.
^It was my own fault I ended up with no money and homeless. I know I deserve to be punished for stealing food. But it doens't mean I wouldn't do it again if I needed to.
I just know that if i was in that position i would steal cheap even if it meant a conviction.
Have you ever confused a dream with life? Or stolen something when you have the cash? Have you ever been blue? Or thought your train moving while sitting still? Maybe I was just crazy. Maybe it was the 60's. Or maybe I was just a girl... interrupted.
I know what it's like to want to die. How it hurts to smile. How you try to fit in but you can't. How you hurt yourself on the outside to try to kill the thing on the inside. I tried groups, didn't work out just made my depression a lot worse.
^It was my own fault I ended up with no money and homeless. I know I deserve to be punished for stealing food. But it doens't mean I wouldn't do it again if I needed to.
And then with that man in the article there may well have been the option of hardship payments, depending on his circumstances. So even if you are sanctioned, you can still live. There is an element of personal responsibility in all aspects of life though, and people need to recognise that.
Essentially, if you steal, you are stealing from us all. Prices of commodities go up partially to cover the lost revenue from theft, and the extra costs involved in keeping it down. If someone steals they need to repay that in some way.
