I think people are born with their sexual instincts inline with their anatomies and sex identities, but these can be altered so that a persons instinct can be compelled to go in another direction.
I once read an interesting account of a person who had abuse from a person that built fires in the woods at the same time as the abuse. This person grew up to have arousal from fires and got in trouble for arson. In truth though I don't think the person could have helped themselves right off. People who undergo traumas can be compelled to be attracted or repelled by things related to the trauma. So I do believe its often traumas/neglects that influence some peoples sexual urges.
There is also the issue of bonding which sometimes gets scoffed at as "simplistic" but Einstein said the laws of the universe are so simplistic they are hard to see and over-looked.
I know people who raise wild animals will tell you that if they want to domesticate a wild animal they need to get it away from its mother right away before it gets "imprinted" with its identity. A baby monkey can also be taken away from its mum and put in with ducks and it will think it is a duck.
Indeed a animal psychologist named Konrad Lorenz won a Noble Prize for his studies of "imprinting" and geese. He used to get geese and ducks to follow him around thinking they were his mother (that's him in pic below). I think people can also get imprinted in ways that steer them away from their core identiy.
So, in view of those observations I think people can be driven to certain identities in ways they can't always control if at all. But I don't think people are born that way. I know people who feel compelled to get taken advantage of in very destructive ways and they often think they just like things like that when they are acting out impulses not organic to them. However I have also found there is also something of fad (mostly among girls) with people declaring themselves to be some sexual pedigree that they often abandon latter.
Last edited by Isoverity : 09-03-2009 at 11:13 AM.
I think you only have to look at the large number of people who have been disowned, abandoned, put through hell by either themselves or others around them, to know that no one makes the choice to do that.
People struggle with accepting their sexuality every day, I don't think it's a choice.
This is a complicated question, and goes beyond nature Vs nurture.
I'm assuming this topic is about being straight or being gay, so I'll write my answer in those terms. I think it becomes more complicated when you start bringing in paraphillias and things since those are more of a cognitive issue than a biological one, sorry for the long post, but in short, I see sexual orientation as a form of gender varaince, but one which is expressed within the sphere of sexual desire only. As such, I do touch on issues of sex (as if in body, not actions) and gender in my post.
Arguably, if it is nurture then that does not make it a choice by default, since people may not have any control over their environmental conditions at the age which the significant changes take place. I find it difficult to believe, in terms of people being gay/straight that it can be down to environment, simply due to the fact that society is so predominately heterosexual and not being straight remains a social stigma amongst many groups.
In addition, there is evidence to suggest that sexual orientation has a biological- but not genetic foundation. Studies have been carried out looking into the brains of gay people and straight people which seem to infer that hormonal conditions in the womb can influence the outcome for sexuality.
In any case, making either assertion is dangerous, for to find a biological cause could be used to justify eugenics and finding environmental causes could be used to justify strict social conditioning, to the detriment of the people put through that system. Personally, I think it is an interaction between nature and nurture with the biological influences establishing a predisposition which, for the most part will manifest itself naturally, but at the same time pre-birth biology doesn't hold a monopoly on our mental development.
In any case, I do not think it is a choice, the 1950's demonstrate this perfectly, not being straight was seen as a pathology, and as a result many people were subjected to "corrective" treatments such at ECT in the hope that it would change their sexuality. The fact is that these failed, and simply damaged people who would have otherwise been healthy. As such, I see sexuality as being something which is ingrained in people, there is no point in attempting to change someone's sexual orientation since it simply does not work. In any case, I think people actually fall upon a scale in terms of gay/straight but with a skew towards being straight, people just take on the label which most acurately describes them. In a related note, I see sex and gender in similar terms, with most people being biologically either male or female, and some people being intersex, and then with secondary sex characteristics, some men will have more "masculine" traits than others and some women will have more "femminine" traits than others, e.g. levels of body hair. Then with gender, most people's gender corresponds to their body, but then gender varaition also exists with some people's genders contrasting with their embodied selves, there is a natural correlation towards being straight and cisgendered (opposite of being transgendered) but humans are complex beings and as such, the number variables invloved in making up "who" we are means that there is plenty of room for people to be different, it is nothing more than natural variation. I am not saying that gender identity is an aspect of sexuality, in fact, I would be more inclined to say that sexual orientation is in fact a form of gender varaince, but expressed only within sexual part of ourselves.
Of course, the term "sexuality" covers far more than gay/straight, for we could start talking about a myriad of sexual behaviours under that term, but when it comes to talking about the sex/gender of the people we prefer to be with, it is something different to talking about pathologies brought about by extreme enviromental conditions. It is simply a case of our biologies being so complex that at times they do not produce the outcome of hetrosexuality. Our early development (I'm talking pre-birth here) forms the mould into which we then grow in to, but at the same time, this mould can loose its initial shape. I am not trying to infer that children have intrinsic sexualities, since our sexualities are something which blooms later on, alongside all the hormones of puberty, but that it can in fact lie latent within a person.
EDIT: Ok, yes, having the desire to do something does not compel you to act upon it, and therefore people who are gay could choose to ignore it, but to my mind, this is damaging, nobody asks heterosexuals to refrain from acting in accordance with their sexuality, to refrain from finding happiness with another person, or to live a lie and pretend to be attracted to someone for the sake of social convenience. The fact is that the only types of relationships which are wrong are abusive ones, informed consent is key to this, if two adults wish to be with one another then so be it; they are not hurting anyone. What is worse is when two people enter into a relationship in which at least one party has no desire to be in, have a child, and then a few years down the line the artificial bond the parents formed with one another falls apart. That statement, does, of course, cover far more than a straight relationship in which at least one partner is in fact gay, but covers any unloving relationship, and this is why I think that couples who are straight hold more potential to cause harm than those who are not; it is the capacity to reproduce with ease. On the other hand, if the family raises a kid well then it holds more potential for good, in which case everything averages out once more. Basically, my view is that sexual orientation is not a choice, to act on it is a choice, but it is not imorral to act upon it.
Last edited by White Noise : 09-03-2009 at 12:35 PM.
Reason: see edit.
Random radio ___________This spiral
Static on tv ____________Has worn a groove so deep
Losing count of _________Cant climb out
All the days and weeks ___Pathetic, painful need
I think it's genetics / influential surroundings when you are brought up as a child such as lack of parents etc, but then at the same time I have heard this same argument used to defend people who commit crimes, is it there fault or just the experiences & genetics they have?
The answer is I don't honestly know so I wont bother arguing about it.
I have to remind myself that some birds just aren't meant to be caged.
Their feathers are just too bright.
And when they fly away, the part of you that knows it was a sin to lock them up rejoices.
Still, the place you live in is that much more drab and empty when they're gone.
I don't think that you can change it at will... you ca try, but you'll only be lying to yourself...
however, I think it can be altered... I mean after my SA expiriance I went off men and started to feel attracted to women... now I don't think I'm a lesbian nor bi really I think it was more that the expiriance sort of drove me that way as I went off men so much... I now have a boyfriend, but I do still feel attracted to women at times... so I guess I'm just confused lol
but I do not think that you can conciously change it, I do think that maybe some sexuality is due to early influances (if anyone knows any developments psychology then you'll have a better understanding of this than I do)
however, I see no reason to think that it's genetic... that makes no sense to me... though could be to do with hormones I guess...
but anyway... my answer is "No, it's not a conscious choice, but it can still be altered"
I think you only have to look at the large number of people who have been disowned, abandoned, put through hell by either themselves or others around them, to know that no one makes the choice to do that.
People struggle with accepting their sexuality every day, I don't think it's a choice.
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Survival instinct discounts the choice theory I feel, as you only have to look at England when the death penalty was still a punishment for homosexuality, you'd think if it were a choice that people would just go straight, for the love of wotsits. However, they didn't, and that says something to me.
I also agree with this:
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actions are choices; feelings/thoughts/sexuality/involuntary muscle movements : not choices. just my opinion :)
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i dont think sexuality is a choice, you can choose to act straight etc and be indenial but truely what you feel you have no choice in :)
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The current "fad" seems to me to be about genuine fluidity of sexual orientation that people could not express in previous, more oppressive times - ie, it's not about choosing at all, it's about having freedom from having to make choices based on what one currently finds attractive
'Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.'
['There is only one thing we say to death. Not today'.']
'We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell. Oscar Wilde
Its hard to dance with the devil on your back. Sydney Carter
I again agree it's a very complicated process, and with the beyond nature vs nurture.
An slight insight on my own background I was a "straight" transman started hormones and after about a month I began seeing a physical attraction to males, I never used to have and that wasn't a choice I made it just happened.
I think yes and no also.
I am gay and from young age I could never understand why it was so wrong to want to marry Kylie Minogue! My parents drummed it into me that I would marry a man and have children. In my teens I was 'straight'. Not through confusion but I felt it was my role in life.
I was also not ready to deal with it as had many things going on. In my early 20's I was ready to sort it out.
I chose/was made to be straight but my inner dyke just couldn't be tamed! so out I am!
I want to kiss the bottom of the ocean before I burst through its surface into the sunlight, otherwise I will always be wondering about what was left unseen at the bottom
i'm tired of chasing my dreams. i'm just gonna ask where they're going, and hook up with them later.
i think it is inbuilt, i mean going out with guys just makes me feel plain awkward, but at the same time I was in denial for so long i've kinda learned to overlook that.
you can choose to be with who you want, but inside you know what you are, there will be something telling you
at least thats how it was for me
Change has a considerable psychological impact on the human mind.
To the fearful it is threatening because it means that things may get worse.
To the confident it is inspiring because the challenge exists to make things better.
To the hopeful it is encouraging because things may get better.
Depends on situations and things.
Like. If a female is attacked by a male, they might make a conscious decision to be a lesbian.
And some people don't make that conscious decision.
But if people are homophobic, sometimes people will try and 'change' their sexuality. Like, going straight or w/e. I don't think that you can crush the thoughts and feelings but people will try.
The earliest times I can remember being attracted to another boy were in 1st grade, in Catholic school no less. Sex was never discussed any time in my youth I recall, so left to my own devices I discovered that I was attracted to boys. Later on I found that I was liked girls as well.
Since those I've had it drilled into me constantly over the years that men should like women, for various ethical, moral, and religious reasons, but that's never changed what I feel in my heart and soul to be the truth.
I said no, it's not, because I really don't think it is.
But it is your choice whether to come out and live the gay lifestyle. But then again, I guess its the same with the straight lifestyle. I'm losing my point.
But yeah, I've known that I'm gay since I was around 10, and came out at 14. I don't believe that I could ever change my sexuality, god knows I've tried. I've always believed that it's the way your brain and your body reacts to different hormones.
Now I'll play your ghost as my ace, whenever I'm led astray.
But I am actually good, can't help it if we're tilted.
I'm in my right place, don't be a downer.
No it's not a choice. After all (and this is not meant in a homophobic way at all) who on earth would choose to be gay. There is so much homophobic bullying going around, biologically gay people can't have kids unless sperm donors/surrogate mothers are involved, in certain countries it is punishable by death and certain religions regard it as a sin. With all that if it truly were a choice why would anyone choose it?
However I do believe that female sexuality is generally more fluid than male. So if a woman was bisexual I guess she could choose to pick partners from one gender, as to could a bisexual male. However that's not really choosing their sexuality, it's just selecting the gender of their partner, if you see what I mean.
