To maybe receive some kind words, to balance out the self attack and shame I feel at these issues.
To hear if anyone else has any kind of similar experiences, or can relate in any way.
To hear if people understand what I'm talking about here.
[Yesterday I ended up deleting 2 threads here that I posted, ostensibly because of lack of replies - apart from a couple of kind people, whose responses I much appreciate. I could have left the thread/s up, but I felt too exposed and ashamed to leave it up there and have people stare at it [me] and not responding. First I posted the one thread, and then deleted it. Later I posted another, but ended up deleting that too.]
The main issue I need help with is the way I respond to men, in particular the forceful, aggressive kind of masculine energy, which can also show up in females, including what I experience as judgement of myself in any form. Because in being judged, that means the power balance shifts to the one doing the judging, and then I feel not only worthless and angry and 'wrong', but also powerless. Although in my adult mind I know that I do still retain my integrity and self.
For my father, everything I - and my mother - did whilst I was growing up was wrong. His forceful male energy wasn't sexual per se, but was very ... aggressive, dominating. He owned and possessed me and my mum, in a negative power crazed kind of way [because he felt so insecure and powerless and lost]. The whole picture is typified by how once, in a fit of desperate rage, he strapped me to my bed. This was 'only' for less than a minute, I think, but is one of the things that has scarred me deeply. I was 9 years old or likely a bit younger, but no older I don't think. I hadn't done anything 'morally' wrong to 'warrant' such a punishment or restraint.
I now have a whole set of defensive reactions to any unknown men, usually strangers in the street, shops or on public transport, I encounter in my life now. This includes me constantly scanning the environment to make sure no one is staring at me, particularly older men. Followed by my either aggressively staring back [yes, I know this is not good] or running away - and this tends to provoke laughter and disparaging comments.
I want to get out of this cycle!
I don't want to show the behaviour I detest in myself to 'defend' myself from the same behaviour in others...
These emotions and reactions are nothing to feel ashamed about or attack yourself about, Katie.
It is completely understandable that after being raised in that environment, you would feel powerless when you perceive judgment, etc from males. And of course you did nothing to warrant being strapped to the bed, that was a complete abuse of power over a child.
I, like you, scan the environment for any men who I think are looking at me the wrong way. I stare back at them challengingly and they usually look away. But as for the running away, maybe you could try this: Turn around slowly, like you are not threatened, walk slowly instead of running, and talk yourself through it in your head, like "I'm leaving, but no one will know why and make comments. Hah, they're not follwing me, and they can't judge me anymore because I'm in control of this situation now." Of course, when I do that, it's like the feeling I get when I go up the stairs and feel someone is coming behind me but I force myself to go slowly because I need to prove to myself I can do it.
Katie,
I was reccommended a book by the person I see at uni about assertiveness. I have found it so useful because of the suggestions it has to counteract either being too passive or too agressive in situations, some of which are very much like you describe. The book is called "A women in your own right; assertiveness and you" and it's by Anne Dickson. I've found it enormously empowering and it made a lot of sense in the way it explained things.
It means a lot that I might not have to punish myself or feel ashamed for these feelings and behaviours.
I agree that it's understandable... yet it is still so hard for me to fully accept. Someone once commented that avoidance of relationship with men is a sign of having been hurt by a man. But not in the context in which I was hurt - by my father.
That does make sense, Megan. I just... well, it involves more control/mastery over the adrenaline-flood. Which I'm working on.
Heidi, I'll reserve that book. I have seen it before, but never read it. Thanks. :) I did an Assertiveness e-learning through work. And found the test of where I was frustrating, as I can be both passive and aggressive [and passive aggressive...] as well as assertive. It depends on which layer of me is active.
I think the way a persons father acts and behaves is very important, as a child our father is our first image/idea of what a male is and how a male acts. And so if that inicial image is a negative one then it can ber easy and even expected that our image and idea of all males will be based upon that first outline. How the father figure acts towards the mother figure I think is also important as that is our first veiw of the relationship between genders and the roles of genders, so if the father acts as if women are weaker or even inferior beings when we are young then we will expect on some level that that is how we would be treated by any male we ever let get close to us so as a defense our mind will learn to fear and avoid men. So essentially your reactions and behaviours are all perfectgly natural and understandable, and defantly nothing to be ashamed of. Esspecially aas, when you think about it, every time someone reacts to your reaction in a negative mannor (i.e. laughing, comments, judgement, etc) is will reinforce those ideas and feelings in your mind
As for how to get past these... well to be honest I'm not sure... as unhghelpful as that is
I think that's a pretty normal response too. It may not be helpful now, but at some point it probably protected you. I personally like Megan's idea on dealing with inappropriate men, and I have found that most effective when I can make myself be assertive enough, but I know what you mean about having trouble getting to that point and having so many different ways of reacting. I know i find it weird how I can be in completely different modes of thinking and its hard to come back to you when you're in those modes. I do know what helps me is to tell myself that x is the way i need to handle a certain situation and even if i feel otherwise, those feelings are ok and understandable, but for me to get the healthiest result, i still need to stick with x. Kind of like rules for me. So I tell myself I have a right to have those feelings, but the feelings don't have to become actions if the action are going to make it worse (even if they're not wrong). So know it's completely understandable you are feeling/acting this way and it isn't wrong that you avoid relationships. It might be a bit hard on you though, as you deserve to not feel scared/threatened constantly. So give yourself the right to work on it at your own pace, you have nothing to be ashamed of.
Stellata, I did not want to reply to this because I don't feel I have anything useful to add. The point I'm at in my life is almost complete avoidance of most people... When I go out in public I usually sit in the car with a newspaper so I can completely avoid eye contact with others. Speaking here, on these forums, is the most talking to others I've done in years. So, I'm only writing this to hopefully assure you that I'm not avioding your posts... I only answer the ones I feel like I can actually help with - and even then I seem to screw it up about half the time.
I'd also like to say that I think I understand the agressive male fear thing...and I've come to look at my response to that as necessary survival skills...especially in the area where I live (HillyBillyville: where all the men are super-juiced with testosterone or something). I honestly couldn't survive here if I didn't avoid these guys and have good radar to recognise the worst of them at a glance. The last time one of these ogres attacked me - I had to copmplain to his boss to get him to stop - and it only made everything much worse for me. So how can I really reply to posts looking for support or an answer to this dilema when I am struggling with it myself? Maybe this is why many others also don't post?
And one last thing... Thank you for changing the wording from bullying to defenses. Fighting back is never bullying in my opinion. However, where I am right now...fighting back has only made things worse for me - so I now hide and say absolutely nothing. That's how disabled I have become from the bullying I've recieved where I live.
Good luck with this Stellata... I see you making other posts to help the girls here and you are so much better at it than me... I'm so grateful you are here...and I'm sorry that I can't offer you some of that back when you need it. I will try more often in the future tho.
And I've been thinking on how true it is that when an instinct, like sexuality, is attacked and denied and oppressed, it does indeed often get twisted and distorted and tainted out of shape. As has happened with me.
Sexual wounding doesn't just come with explicit inappropriate sexual behaviour towards a child.
The male in me - my asssertiveness, my adventurousness, my proactiveness, my drive, is all damaged, and also my relationship to men, and the male aspect in other women. And so I'll 'shoot arrows' and penetrate with my dark, to keep out any light in them.
sd, thank you for understanding. I'll try and say more later. Mind has gone kind of blank.
Lily, your response is very helpful, thank you. It means a lot that you reached out to reply to and connect with me.
I hear that you also have experienced fighting back as worsening things for you. I find for myself that sometimes the defence can bring a huge bullying towards me, more than there was before I didn't defend myself, when there was only a minimal 'inappropriate' or 'uncomfortable' behaviour towards me. It's a hard cycle to get out of.
I think that we make the best replies to posts on things that we know the struggles of deep down. I don't feel it should stop people posting - this is no judgement against you or anyone else, simply my belief - I believe that it should support people in gaining their own voice more fully.
Bullying/abuse is disabling. And I think, at least for myself, it fuels a whole package of righteous rage - that we've become disabled by the power starved behaviours of another, which has in turn left us power starved and in a agonised internal conflict about what to do with it.
"I hear that you also have experienced fighting back as worsening things for you. I find for myself that sometimes the defence can bring a huge bullying towards me, more than there was before I didn't defend myself, when there was only a minimal 'inappropriate' or 'uncomfortable' behaviour towards me. It's a hard cycle to get out of."
Yes, this is my experience too. I loved the way you described this. It is exactly my experience...first I was just weird/outcast ... but after standing up for myself I was not only an easy target for their rage/retaliation ... I also attracted more bullies. Much more. And being as out-numbered as I was, I had to switch to "flee" mode, instead of "fight" mode...
"Bullying/abuse is disabling. And I think, at least for myself, it fuels a whole package of righteous rage - that we've become disabled by the power starved behaviours of another, which has in turn left us power starved and in a agonised internal conflict about what to do with it."
I agree with this also Stellata... But I wanted to add that I don't think it's fair to focus entirely on our part of it, to be left weakened by it, and feeling responsible. This is a problem with society... It's not our fault ...and that's why I refuse to blame myself for what happened. I didn't start this fire. Somebody, in their simple hatred and judgementalism, picked up that first stone and hit me with it. My moral values tell me to speak up about that. I really do feel that's the right thing to do. Because if we all remain silent about bullying - we will have no choice but to bully also to get where we need to go in life. That's because society makes those rules, not me. So I, at least, keep talking about it. I'll continue to write letters of complaint whenever it gets really bad, even tho I know it'll get worse. Talking here is even part of that "protest" for me... But is it safe for me to walk the streets of my neighbourhood, to go food shopping in the local stores? Not at all. They win that battle. But they can't make me shut up. And if this is a "bad" behavior in me, I refuse to take blame for it. I refuse to look at the wounds I've suffered at their hands and blame myself for it. And that includes feeling guilty about having to fight back. The only question for me is "Is this the battle to ignore, or is this the time to unleash hell?" I'm learning to be selective, simply because I know I'll suffer a lot of punishments for my actions. Yes, you are right - it fills you with rage... but I'm done with turning that rage against me. That sword is there for them - they gave it to me, and every time one of them attacks me I get the opportunity to sharpen it ... but every good soldier knows that their shield is really their best weapon most of the time. We have to own our sword and shield, and not feel bad about using them in our defense.
Like others in this thread I feel like the words are escaping me today. However, I hope that is more positive and a better description of what I was trying to say yesterday... and I hope that makes you feel better Stellata.
I want to clarify that this is a thread about male power, and how the paternal domination that I endured as a child and teen has affected me and my relationship with myself and others. It's about the defences that I built up in an attempt to retain some semblance of personal power.
I don't blame myself for what happened, but where I'm at now I am taking responsibility for the 'fall out', and this is hard won, to have got thus far. Sometimes I do still behave in a very bitchy way though. I don't yet have always a viable alternative, because, like you, Lily, I refuse to take being humiliated 'lying down'. As typified by being told/forced/? to lie on my front and then being strapped to my bed by my father.
A main part of the challenge for me is that my father hated women, so now a part of me of which I don't have full control, is impelled to hate men and belittle and humiliate them. I know some men who don't treat me like **** - one of my flatmates [and his son, although he's only nearly 4!], one of my managers, several colleagues, some customers at work, the occasional waiter when I'm out for a meal with my parents
... and my father now.
Yes, that's right, my father no longer treats me like a subspecies of humanity or a dog. My father actually loves the sight of me, my presence, now.
My father is in his early 70s now.
When he treated me like **** he was my age now, and a bit younger.
He was very unwell with untreated depression and other stuff.
I'm in treatment, and am working through unravelling those deep imprints my father's treatment of me [and the girls at school] left.
But because he's gentle and kind to me now, I feel a bit of a fraud seeking and needing help for the fallout. Like it should be all better now our present relationship is ok... [Although I don't see my parents that often now.]
Lily, thank you for sharing your experiences, it's helpful to know I'm not alone. :)
Is there anyone out there who's not been sexually abused, but has a similar conflict about men and their power?
Yes, that's right, my father no longer treats me like a subspecies of humanity or a dog. My father actually loves the sight of me, my presence, now.
My father is in his early 70s now.
When he treated me like **** he was my age now, and a bit younger.
He was very unwell with untreated depression and other stuff.
I'm in treatment, and am working through unravelling those deep imprints my father's treatment of me [and the girls at school] left.
But because he's gentle and kind to me now, I feel a bit of a fraud seeking and needing help for the fallout. Like it should be all better now our present relationship is ok... [Although I don't see my parents that often now.]
I can't answer your question about not having been sexually abused, but I just wanted to let you know that I really understand the paragraph I quoted. I get on with my father now, really well, and yet I still bare the scars of what I went through. In my opinion you aren't a fraud for needing help, in some ways the fact that you have a good relationship with him now complicates matters, if you were to just blindly hate him then psychologically that would be quite simple, but to have forgiveness and love for him whilst still suffering because of how he treated you in the past sets up conflicting thoughts. It can be difficult for others to understand, as I've experienced myself and it can be difficult to get your head around. I guess for myself I almost see my father as being a completely different person to who he was, because in many ways he is, but ultimately I'm glad we can have a good relationship now because I'd rather still have a dad even if it raises some complicated emotions.
And people on another thread being upset about not being allowed to do something by parents. Huh? Try not ever being allowed out. Try not even thinking about wanting to be allowed out, because you're your parents POSSESSION, and you're trained not to want anything? And try living with that now, when you've started feeling safe to have desires.
And it messes with your heat. [Freudian slip - meant to be head.]
And being my father's 'possession'.
I can see so much now how that's messed with my sexuality and it's expression.
I couldn't even consider dating boys.
[Not that I wanted to - scared of them, and anyway being in a girls' school I never had access to many.]
I was imprisoned, virtually.
Women belong in the home. They should not have freedom, not have rights, not have positions of responsibility. They are to be owned by men. The man's home is his castle. All of that.
It's different now. But I'm left with the scars. So many scars.
And everyone laughed at me in changing rooms at swimming, because I didn't 'cover up' while changing like they did. Was I not taught modesty? At 10 I was pulling out any pubic hairs that appeared. I didn't know what they were. I did other stuff to myself 'down there' because I thought I was growing a male 'thing'. In my early teens I thought I could get pregnant from my dad's sperm from in the bath. [We shared bath water, not baths. Usually I 'went in' before my dad, and he had his after. But sometimes he'd 'go' before me.] And yeah. I really did have worries that I was pregnant.
