I just wanted to add on to my post last night that I agree it may seem I haven't read some of your posts. But I have a policy of refusing to read, acknowledge or reply to anything which contains expletives, insults and accusations. There is simply no need for it, you can have a reasoned, rational, thought-provoking and view-point changing debate without it resorting to swearing, shouting, bullying and tantrums.
I'm sorry, I'm just used to debating rules and etiquette. I agree that there is a lot of interesting information on this thread before it descended into pointless name-calling and who-can-swear-the-worst. An information thread would be a very good idea :)
(I also mentioned this to the uni counsellor this morning, she said that whilst people with aspergers or autism are wanting compassion, support, kindness and consideration, then she will always be there to provide it). So I feel vindicated, at least.
Well, as you know so much about AS, you'll be well aware of the fact that I am unlikely to stop posting until my point has been well made and accepted. So here again, in your own words and ours, my point..
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
I have been taught by one of the largest and most prolific researchers into Autism in the country after she did a brief research period at my university.
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
I am interested in the cognitive and social development of children with autism. A major problem for children with autism is their difficulty with social interaction.
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
I find it very offensive that you say I have no experience or understanding of autism. I have studied autism, had a job supporting people with autism, lived in a house with a girl with autism, my family has autism in it, and I have friends with aspergers.
Given all your education and experience, I'm very surprised that you have continued on this thread with absolutely no consideration of anybody elses feelings, especially those of already venerable young adults with Asperger's, who you are well aware have difficulties in communicating, and seeing things from other peoples point of view.
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Originally Posted by Nil
ASD should not be lumped into MH because they should not be treated by Mental Health Services that encourage people to talk about their feelings when autistics lack that capacity.
This comment perhaps seems flawed, but given you understand the communication difficulties people with AS have, I would have thought you'd realise that perhaps this comment has not been communicated in quite the way it was meant. Perhaps if you had any understanding or empathy you would have helped clrarify for the sake of others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffodill
I have been treated by mental health teams in 3 different areas and some have been helpful and others completely abysmal and led to my damaged tendons, severe allergic reactions (now) to paracetamol, missing a chunk of my tongue from seizures...etc. You can't simply compare one and the other.
I would have thought, given your mistreatment by "abysmal" mental health services who obviously have very little understanding of your condition, you would be a little more understanding, perhaps even sympathetic towards the mistreatment we have suffered. Obviously your treatment is all that matters to you, and you have little interest in that of others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nil
My point is that autism is a different kettle of fish entirely, and every professional I saw pre-diagnosis thought my inability to communicate and literal interpretation of their advice/comments to be rude and uncooperative, thus labelling me as difficult and totally hindering my recovery. I think ASD services should be separate and MH pros should be trained to refer someone outside their system and INTO an ASD specific system if they exhibit any of the symptoms, not keep them in MH and believe they are depressed or awkward.
"I think"... just like to point out thats a phrase used to express personal opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nil
Offering compassion to someone with autism is very different to offering it to someone without. I would rather have had no "support" than had them interfere with my life and well-being. Once someone has been settled into an ASD specific system, they could be referred to counsellors or psychologists, but ONLY those who are trained in the condition, lest it do more harm than good.
Again, I make these points. I hope you read them properly this time.
I'd also just like to point out the use of the word "I" in these quotes. Obviously, (yes, even me with apparently well understood difficulties in understanding can see) Nil is talking from personal experience, making no assumption whatsoever that other people would feel the same or experience the same. The fact that many do, obviously, is something you are unaware of. Again, highlighting your obvious lack of contact with people with AS and their families.
If you had taken the time to read these posts properly, you would not have needed to start an argument in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
Well I have bipolar and I can be manic and say nasty things, can that be my excuse too?.
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
Anyway, this will be my last post as I can see ignorance=brick .
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
argh *brickwallbrickwall*.
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
Patchwork - the reason I didnt' read your reply was because you were assuming my earlier post was addressed to you, which it wasn't. Right now I am addressing you, so it would be pointless if someone else commented on this. When I tell a friend I don't like their hat, it doesn't mean I don't like another persons hat, I mean *their* hat. Your reply to me was therefore redundant, becuse you were answering points that were not directed at you.
Implying I don't understand? I've already shown you I do.. why try to make me feel stupid?
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
I take it all back. People with autism should never be given the opportunity to have counselling or support. It was an evil idea of mine, I will call my uncle now and tell him to stop going, and go back to the way he was (i.e. suicidal)..
YES, I recognise SARCASM!
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
disagree with me, in case there were any more grammatical confusions..
Trying to draw us into an argument?
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
Fine, I'm wrong. I hope people with autism never get any treatment like you do..
Very nice comment (YES, that was effecive use of SARCASM!!), sarcastic or not.
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
Oh and Patchwork - my post *up there* was actually sarcastic, so again, you've got the wrong end of the stick.
Implying I don't understand.. again? I'm actually not surprised at this point.
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
And as bitchy as this sounds, I'm glad you are "so ****ing angry, really pissed off" etcetc patchwork.
Well I'm glad you got what you wanted, no matter who you upset in the process.
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Originally Posted by Daffodill
I hope you're ok. I have calmed down anyway, I hope you can see that some of my posts were sarcastic, or me getting upset. I'll go now, and when I next see the university counsellor, I'll ask her about this, and inform her that some people think the uni counselling service should refuse to offer appointments to anyone with ASD/Aspergers.
These comments have upset me and made me extremely angry, and I feel personally that you have tried to draw us into a ridiculous and pointless argument. I thought it might help you to see where exactly HOW you upset me, and where you could perhaps have been a little less rude. Perhaps next time you will think a little before you make such comments.
If you actually had any real understanding of AS at all, you would realise that drawing people with AS into an argument, is absolutely not the way to help them understand your point of view at all. If you wanted to make your point, I'm sure you, with all your experience and understanding could have thought of a better way. I find you arrogant, ignorant, rude, offensive. I really hope you're not planning to work with autistic people at all. If I knew who you were, and where you are, I would do my very best to make sure you never have the opportunity to work with autistic people, as you so obviously lack the empathy, patience and understanding it takes to do so.
I hope you actually learn something from this post, and can see past your own stubborn arrogance and accept my views and opinions on the matter. I think, considering my difficulties in communication and explaining myself (those you have so helpfully tried to point out), I've done quite a good job of making my point. I have nothing further to say on the matter.
"you're telling me I'm stuck here with you?"
"No.. I'm stuck here with you."
Can i ask a question - can anyone explain to me the difference between autism and aspergers. Is Autism an umberella term for several conditions?
I honestly think you should create an informative thread - it would help a lot of people get to grips with a condition/s that not many understand. I for one have come in to contact with people suffereing from autism and never really understood it much, and from reading this thread have gained a better insight.
So thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences. Please dont be put off from doing so in the future
xxxxxxxxxxx
Last edited by espoir : 13-08-2009 at 04:14 PM.
Reason: my grammar was awfull!!!!!
After all this has passed, i still will remain
After i've cried my last, there'll be beauty from pain
OK, I've found some easy to read info for anyone who's interested. I've pulled some out to give you a short answer, but I'll include the links so you can read more if you want.
"Asperger syndrome is a form of autism, which is a lifelong disability that affects how a person makes sense of the world, processes information and relates to other people. Autism is often described as a 'spectrum disorder' because the condition affects people in many different ways and to varying degrees"
"The word 'spectrum' is used because, while all people with autism share three main areas of difficulty, their condition will affect them in very different ways. Some are able to live relatively 'everyday' lives; others will require a lifetime of specialist support."
"While there are similarities with autism, people with Asperger syndrome have fewer problems with speaking and are often of average, or above average, intelligence. They do not usually have the accompanying learning disabilities associated with autism, but they may have specific learning difficulties. "
This is a long thread lol. I've read a little of it.
I only know a basic amount about autism myself... but my half-brother does have Aspergers (and my mum keeps saying I do when I blatantly don't) so I do know a little about that. I will read through the thread fully later as it looks fairly interesting (though heated at times lol)
If I knew who you were, and where you are, I would do my very best to make sure you never have the opportunity to work with autistic people, as you so obviously lack the empathy, patience and understanding it takes to do so.
And who said you didn't make things personal
Please just calm down. I have worked with people with autism, and I even got a little shiny award certificate from it. There is NO NEED to descend into this. I didn't want to reply, but that statement is incredibly upsetting. I haven't at one single point said anything even remotely childish and hurtful as you have there, or even slightly stalkerish... I'm sorry you feel so strongly, as I have repeatedly pointed out, I have tried to remain calm throughout. I'm sorry you think that makes me a big bad wolf. One silly dispute on an internet forum is no reason to make real-life threats of retaliation. I have never sworn at you, I have not called you names, nor have I threatened to track you down and ruin your life, I understand things can get heated, but where personal feelings are involved it can often be the case.
I will reiterate my core beliefs, this time I hope you can see past any blind rage, although I know this sin't fully directed at me, because before I joined this thread, similar behaviour was being thrown at other members, I believe it was Pup on page two who told you to 'chill'?
1) People with aspergers are all different. Some people benefit from having someone to talk to, others don't. Everybody has seperate dreams, desires, goals, likes, dislikes, what works for one may not necessarily work for another. Patient-centered care is, luckily a major part of any health system.
2) Some people with aspergers have voluntarily sought out counselling. My university counsellor has told me she has seen and continues to see people who have, out of their own time and free will, emailed her for an appointment.
3) Mental health teams are not the appropriate place for people with any form of ASD, however if the person voluntarily decides to seek out a form of therapy, occupational therapy (drawing, maths, day trips) then it is their right to do so. Specific autistic treatment is obviously the appropriate treatment, anything else should be alongside, and voluntary.
Now, I hope you can try to calm, don't accuse of me 'starting an argument' - there is a big difference between discussing points and issues, debating, and descending into petty name-calling. I'm sorry if my above points offend you, they are simply born out of what I have experienced, and discussed with other people, I agree I could be wrong. You are/were welcome to change my mind, but I just can't listen when real-life threats and foul language are used. I understand you have aspergers, but you do seem intelligent (patchwork and nil) and I have seen that you can do this.
Any sarcastic comment or emotive post from me was born out of my own issues, as you have pointed out yourself, you can't blame me for those, Nil himself(herself?) said that I would expect somone to be more lenient with me, based on my own issues and diagnosis. (I actually don't, because it is very rarely offered).
I hope you have remained calm reading this, if you are stressed, take some time, and read it again. This is my third post where I have honestly tried to be fair, level, compassionate and rectify and misunderstandings or hurt feelings. I understand that out of your own anger you might have missed that.
I could use the multi-quote function to, and bring up the numerous expletives, insults, accusations and threats, but that would not be fair, or productive in any sense.
I hope you are ok. I look forward to reading the information thread, if you feel unable to explain to me why you feel my beliefs are wrong, without resorting to a descent into argumentativeness. Obviously you have much more experience and insight into the condition than I do, I am looking at it from an outsider view, which is the view shared by professionals, who themselves can be wrong.
Please just calm down. I have worked with people with autism, and I even got a little shiny award certificate from it. There is NO NEED to descend into this. I didn't want to reply, but that statement is incredibly upsetting. I haven't at one single point said anything even remotely childish and hurtful as you have there, or even slightly stalkerish... I'm sorry you feel so strongly, as I have repeatedly pointed out, I have tried to remain calm throughout. I'm sorry you think that makes me a big bad wolf. One silly dispute on an internet forum is no reason to make real-life threats of retaliation. I have never sworn at you, I have not called you names, nor have I threatened to track you down and ruin your life, I understand things can get heated, but where personal feelings are involved it can often be the case.
I will reiterate my core beliefs, this time I hope you can see past any blind rage, although I know this sin't fully directed at me, because before I joined this thread, similar behaviour was being thrown at other members, I believe it was Pup on page two who told you to 'chill'?
1) People with aspergers are all different. Some people benefit from having someone to talk to, others don't. Everybody has seperate dreams, desires, goals, likes, dislikes, what works for one may not necessarily work for another. Patient-centered care is, luckily a major part of any health system.
2) Some people with aspergers have voluntarily sought out counselling. My university counsellor has told me she has seen and continues to see people who have, out of their own time and free will, emailed her for an appointment.
3) Mental health teams are not the appropriate place for people with any form of ASD, however if the person voluntarily decides to seek out a form of therapy, occupational therapy (drawing, maths, day trips) then it is their right to do so. Specific autistic treatment is obviously the appropriate treatment, anything else should be alongside, and voluntary.
Now, I hope you can try to calm, don't accuse of me 'starting an argument' - there is a big difference between discussing points and issues, debating, and descending into petty name-calling. I'm sorry if my above points offend you, they are simply born out of what I have experienced, and discussed with other people, I agree I could be wrong. You are/were welcome to change my mind, but I just can't listen when real-life threats and foul language are used. I understand you have aspergers, but you do seem intelligent (patchwork and nil) and I have seen that you can do this.
Any sarcastic comment or emotive post from me was born out of my own issues, as you have pointed out yourself, you can't blame me for those, Nil himself(herself?) said that I would expect somone to be more lenient with me, based on my own issues and diagnosis. (I actually don't, because it is very rarely offered).
I hope you have remained calm reading this, if you are stressed, take some time, and read it again. This is my third post where I have honestly tried to be fair, level, compassionate and rectify and misunderstandings or hurt feelings. I understand that out of your own anger you might have missed that.
I could use the multi-quote function to, and bring up the numerous expletives, insults, accusations and threats, but that would not be fair, or productive in any sense.
I hope you are ok. I look forward to reading the information thread, if you feel unable to explain to me why you feel my beliefs are wrong, without resorting to a descent into argumentativeness. Obviously you have much more experience and insight into the condition than I do, I am looking at it from an outsider view, which is the view shared by professionals, who themselves can be wrong.
Take care
xx
1. Pup told someone else to chill. The OP.
2. They need someone to talk to who understands their condition, not just someone with a 'shiny certificate' that says they know how to talk to people.
3. They don't know where else they can go.
4. "there is a big difference between discussing points and issues, debating, and descending into petty name-calling". Yes, and there is a difference between acting like a patronising, sarcastic bully (ask the members reading this thread - I've had THREE PM's telling me your behaviour was disgraceful) and being sensitive about someone's condition, calling them an 'ignorant brick wall', even calling them a stalker. It is obvious to anyone that Patchwork has no ability to carry out her 'threat' because this forum is anonymous and you have deliberately made it into something it was not.
5. I swear sometimes, so do a lot of people. Just because you're not used to this does not mean my language is 'foul'. And, at one point you did deserve to be told to f*ck off. Probably at more than one point.
6. I see that the angrier posts could've been the product of your condition. That is fair enough. However, I would ask that you refrain from posting things you know are nasty when you're in a mood you cannot control. I am never outside the state of not-knowing-how-my-words-are-interpreted; you are sometimes and do know in hindsight when you've hurt someone's feelings, without it being pointed out. So if you can leave us alone and not inflict your mood on us that would be nice.
I actually think this needs to stop, and the thread to just be about informing people about Autism and Asperger's etc. Because, although not about me, I'm getting sick of reading some of the replies here, which I feel border on bullying. I could just stop reading but I'm part of this community and I think it affects all of us.
This doesn't need to go any further. The thread should maintain the subject of Autism/Asperger's and people may just have to agree to disagree.
I am not fine with someone threatening to track me down and come after me in real life.
Nil - if you think that is me getting upset unnecessarily, then I beg you to reconsider. Patchwork, with a quick search on here, can get access to my hometown, my university, my course, societies I am in, and the name of the (small) department I work in. When a person threatens to track a person with a mental illness down and come after them, it is not the mentally ill persons fault they get upset. If you told someone with an ED they were fat, they would be right to be upset.
All I need is some reassurance I don't need to be as worked up and distracted as I have been today. I assume patchwork is going to come and have a go at me now, and that is welcomed, so long as I don't need to be afraid someone is going to hunt me down and hurt me.
Let.it.go.
This is a great thread, very informative/interesting.
You are going to cause it to be locked, and that would be sad.
For Nil and Patchwork; did you always know you were seeing things 'differently' from others who dont have AS?
I'm sure school was a nightmare for you both.
What is the best thing a friend of someone with AS/ASD/etc do?
What is most the most helpful for you?
What would you like ppl to understand better?
What do you wish ppl would say/do to you?
Has it helped having finally been diagnosed?
Ok, i'll stop there, lol
*20 questions, anyone*
No! I am not just agreeing to not be worried about something hanging over me - the threat of someone coming after me in real life!
I bet if I went into the ED forum and told people they were fat, you wouldn't tell them to let that go?
I don't want to report it, I understand she was upset, but right now I am shaking and heart race and worried. They can't make me out to be making up something for the sake of it, because I don't want to report, I just want to leave this and get on with my life.
My brother has Asperger Syndrome, and I would like to think that has given me some modest insight into the condition, though I would not presume to say I know how what it's like. But perhaps for some people, a family member's perspective might be of interest, so here goes.
He was diagnosed with AS in his teens. There were definitely symptoms in his childhood, but it wasn't much of a problem, because my mother found strategies for helping him be happy and helping others cope with his behaviour. I grew up with him, and as a child, I didn't get on with him. He could be painfully blunt or come off as rude, even cruel sometimes. More to the point, he had little understanding or respect for anyone's needs or feelings other than his own, so he often got what he want from my parents, especially my dad, at the expense of what I wanted or needed. In his teens he became physically aggressive, sometimes to me, sometimes to people at school. My mother cared for him mostly completely alone, and yet he didn't realise that it was hard for her. I would see her cry, and I hated him for making her cry.
Since he was diagnosed, things have changed for the better. A lot of it was down to the brilliant occupational therapist he saw under the local child & adolescent mental health service. He was very lucky to find somebody who understood his AS, and I realise that even more having read the experiences others in this thread have had with mental health services. The adult mental health services can't seem to work out what to do with him; one psychiatrist said he was depressed, others said he wasn't. He gets the real autism-specific help he needs from an Aspergers 'coach'.
I don't have any hate or anger towards my brother now that I understand his condition, and instead I have affection, and tolerance for him. There are lots of good things about people with AS. Their blunt-ness can be both funny and refreshing, once you know not to take it to heart, and their unique way of thinking can make them brilliant, and innovative. Now I know he is not unfeeling or cold, he just can't express himself articulately. And he does care how other people feel, he just can't predict how others will feel or behave in certain situations. If he offends me, I know he doesn't mean to. That's just how he is, how he was born, and he can't help it.
From what I've been told, it's incredibly difficult to live with undiagnosed AS, to feel like an alien, not understanding what people mean, how and why you are 'expected' to behave. To be painfully aware that you're different, and not know why. At least, as a 'neurotypical', that's how I understand it. I just wanted to say that.
s a r a h
* pm me * eating disorders info *
"Between two worlds life hovers like a star,
twixt night and morn, upon the horizon's verge."
- Lord Byron
If I knew who you were, and where you are, I would do my very best to make sure you never have the opportunity to work with autistic people, as you so obviously lack the empathy, patience and understanding it takes to do so.
This comment was made with the intention of showing you just how strongly I feel about the subject and just how angry I was about the comments made. It was in no way meant to be a threat. As you can see, I obviously have no idea who you are or where you are, and to be perfectly honest wouldn't waste to time trying to find out. Perhaps I made this comment in a moment of anger, and I let my feelings cloud my judgement of wether it was appropriate or not. Though, If you feel your personal details are that easily found, I suggest you make them a little less accessable. This is the internet after all.
I don't feel the comment was particularly rude, and I personally don't see it as a threat. However, I appreciate that you may, and am not above apologising for my behaviour, because having a problem, wether you can control it or not, wether you have insight into it or not, is NO excuse for being rude, offensive, or threatening in any way, and certainly no excuse for refusing to apologise for it. We are all responsibe for our own actions and our own words, something you would do well to accept.
So for any distress I have caused you, I apologise. Obviously, as you have shown me, I cannot expect the same from you.
Just so we have absolutely no misunderstanding here, I have absolutely no intention of trying to find out where you are, who you are, or doing you any harm in any way. I wouldn't waste the time or energy.
"you're telling me I'm stuck here with you?"
"No.. I'm stuck here with you."
