I just wanted to cut through some of the tangles I may have created for myself here in saying that the core of this is - when someone feels as unsafe in the world and around other people as I do often, and it isn't appropriate for hospital admission, what can the community provide, what can the individual access, how can we help that person start to feel safe? Hospital is traditionally the refuge, the 'asylum' for those in distress. [Although I know that practically this wasn't the case in lots of ways for many, especially in the distant past.]
Ironically, perhaps, some of the responses to my posting openly and honestly about the many layers of my feelings has led me to feel even more unsafe.
People who may tip close to the edge at times need enough support to help them stay in the community and not need the supervision hospital might provide. I have this. Not everyone does.
I've not been catatonically depressed, but I know, and my doctor knows, and my GP knows, and my homeopath is getting to know, that I've had episodes of very severe depression. Much of this is in the past now. So I'm looking at it for myself in retrospect, mainly. Currently I'm probably on the dysthymic type end, although relating to elements of this thread has pushed me down lower. I don't have great self esteem at the best of times.
But I'm also concerned, as I stated in my original post, about the members here who are in a similar situation to me. That our threads don't get sidelined for those who're more noticeably unwell, as it were. Not so much myself, but I do see many threads that go unanswered or with few replies. We're starting to change this as a community on RYL. Encouraging people to speak/write is a major step. The sooner, the younger, people start reaching out and connecting with others and support services, and knowing that it can be a positive, safe experience, the better, really.
what can the community provide, what can the individual access, how can we help that person start to feel safe?
good question... I'm not sure lol
I've heard of people having befrienders, CPNs, social workers, etc. I'm not 100% on what these peple do, but I'd assume it's a way of helping someone be able to live in society
Here there are some "groups" too. There's is pillar and penumbria and another which I've forgotten the name of... they are like a club for people with mental illness, they go on trips and go bowling and hold workshops and learning courses, etc.
I went to pillar once and it looked really good (haven't been since though as I can't het into town )
so other places will probably have these types of things too
I had a befriender. She disappeared on me. But the idea was [as recommended by my then psychiatrist] to start to get me back out into the community, to feel safer around people. It helped, a bit. She came food shopping with me, and sometimes we had a meal out. I really needed her to come on public transport with me, to help me start to feel safe with that, but we never got that far.
I may appear to be fully integrated into the community, but I run from one island of safe humanity to another. Home. Work. Therapy. And repeat.
Am still kind of scared of groups - and the Mind befriending coordinator didn't recommend their social club, because of my vulnerability and particular fears.
In my city there is a Crisis Centre which has a 24-hour phoneline, offers one-to-one meetings and has the option of overnight stays to people who are in a mental health crisis, but who want to avoid hospital, it's less medically orientated more about providing support than psychiatric care
I guess other community services as mentioned above. People, basically, that's what's shown to make the most difference.
Hi It does seem that this has stirred up a lot of feeling and maybe everyone needs to remember that old adage that they should speak to others in the way that they would want to be treated. It seems that there needs to be respect for people's opinions and no one has the right to judge anyone else on both sides of this arguement. This is supposed to be a SUPPORT site so surely if we don't find understanding and empathy here there is something wrong. Why is it so threatening for there to be elements of truth in both sides of this yes there can be a feeling that if you have been in hospital you are 'sicker' but also surely we should commend someone who copes with feeling so unsafe and isolated in the world and not conclude they are not struggling as much. Surely the only valid viewpoint is to listen and try to understand the heart behind what is being said after all we are all here because we need validation and connection not competition and judgement. Sorry this has got very preachy it wasn't meant to be it's just upsetting to see that this site could be causing harm rather than what it was set up for. That is just my probably niave view but why are we here?
ok i haven't read every single reply because after how hostile people are getting it's starting to annoy me. But anyway, I think you're right Katie. Different types of illnesses need different types of treatment. I get paranoid. But I generally don't do it in a dangerous way so I don't get forced hospitalization for it. I no longer get that suicidal either, so there's really no need for constant supervision. But that doesn't mean I'm any more or less ill than anyone else. Same for you. Honestly, like you said before, hospital would probably be detrimental to you. You probably wouldn't find the care and understanding your specific emotional needs deserve. But that doesn't make your problems any more or less severe than anyone else. It just means hospital isn't going to make you better and I'm sure your care team knows that. Plus hospital is seen by most people as very distressing, so it is not forced or usually even suggested unless absolutely necessary. There really is very little therapy in the hospitals i've been in. They are really just to keep you safe and have little bearing on your recovery or illness.
I think people on here (not you katie) need to stop trying to compare other people's problems. I'm sure there is some level of worse and better, but it's impossible for us to really categorize the worse and better, so it's much more helpful to just accept everyone's problems and not compare at all!
Also, people need to realize that symptoms do not equal pain. Some people can cope with pain better and hide it more efficiently, but that does not mean they do not feel it as much.
Hazel, I also have trouble using a phone, along with trouble going outside. [I also have trouble being at home if it's noisy in any way, or if my flatmates have anyone round.] When I'm in crisis I just cannot pick up a phone. I wouldn't even be able to get myself to a and e.
frozenfairytale, I totally agree.
My team do their best to keep me out of 'the system'/hospital even when I'm very unwell. My GP's even advised me to contact the Samaritans rather than use a and e when in crisis. She knows that going there would make me more unwell etc than not.
Also, although I hesitate to say this, the NHS, at least around here, don't really get involved much in the treatment of someone in private psychotherapy, even in case of crisis.
It's also very hard for me to use a phone with someone I do not know extremely well. Basically I am only comfortable completely calling my boyfriend and my mom. I'm ok with a few others, but not as much. My bf will seriously ask me to call a mutual friend to set up hanging out and I will do everything I can not to do it. I could've known them for years and know the call will only be 2 minutes.
Funny thing is if I do get on the phone, I'm fine. But I will text, ignore calls, do anything not to actually talk on the phone with certain people. But I can call people I do not know for work/school related stuff. Weird. But yeah i'm rambling but I know what you mean. I cannot hardly pick up a phone during crisis either. I've been told I called too much when in crisis (by a person who begged me to call her cause I never did before, so when I did she turns around and does that). So now I'm both afraid of talking and even if I can get past that I am deathly afraid of bothering someone about my problems. I can call my crisis team 24/7 yet I never do. I'd rather walk into a hospital than call them. So I know exactly what you mean.
So yeah basically what helps me (realized i'd never answered hazel's question!), is if my case manager were to actually initiate contact and do the home visits she's supposed to do and actually ask me questions. I know that's probably asking too much, but I am so bad at asking for help. I might be able to text or email her (not sure if I can do either, she doesn't talk to me much), but I really need someone telling me it's ok to talk and that I'm not bothering them. I feel like I get ignored by her for the clients that call her 24/7. So yeah, fixing the system to where professionals understand whether you want to be contacted or if you prefer to contact them (i'm obviously the former), would be good. They should ask you up front or something. That would really help. I have to say if that were to happen I would probably have not gone to the hospital so many times. The only reason i used to go so much was cause I knew no other way to ask for help. If I walked into a hospital I was forced to talk. It was somehow easier. But if professionals could initiate contact with me I would probably be fairly honest and wouldn't get to the desperate point. I no longer have ANY desire to go to the hospital, which now means I will probably do neither unfortunately. I know it's not their fault but I wish I could get just a little more care. It would also help if they didn't push the meds so much so you don't feel like every time you have an issue you're going to be put on a med or added a fourth medication or put up to the near highest dose. (actual examples of what's happened to me)
I want to respond properly to everyone here, and hope to do that later today when I have more time.
I really do appreciate people's respect of me, and I hope after some things that happened on this thread haven't lessened people's opinion of me.
I accept I may have had some inaccurate, stereotyped views and assumptions. This happens when you're trying to understand something, to make sense of something that's so confusing and in many ways subjective.
At the end of the day we're all individuals, and the professionals involved in our care are all individuals. Most of us want to have 'a life' and will work hard at recovery for this. I think many of us when we're in a lot of distress, really struggling, want and/or need respite from life's struggles, a space away from the stressors.
There are a lot of reasons people are hospitalised.
I think in the case of my team they want me to develop independence, and work hard on strategies with them to enable me to remain in the community among the people I know and who understand. Much as some psychiatrists would prescribe me multiple medications, I don't want that, even if some might say I need it, or have at certain times. The psych. I saw said I was lucky with him, another psych. would probably medicate me much more. That was why I chose, with his and my GP's agreement, to be discharged from him once I'd seen him for the consultation 4 appointments, and I was relatively stable.
I can think of several times when I was close to hospital being necessary. One was when I had a breakdown when I was 24. However I stayed with my parents that week. They didn't understand what was going on, but they accepted me, and were there. I wasn't in any kind of treatment at that point.
Another time was when I came off efexor. Especially when the paranoia and aggression was at it's peak.
Then one Summer when I was very vulnerable and my sensitivity was too high and I was really struggling and very paranoid and hyper-vigilant, and everything felt like an intrusion.
Does the fact that I actually managed to 'cope' in the community mean that I didn't need hospital type support? Who can say? And what's coping anyway? Hmm. It's all in retrospect, so it's largely a rhetorical question.
I really do think that there is more in the way of respite type care needed. And options for people in private psychotherapy which support their work. Not places that medicate and restrain. Not everyone needs that. But safe places. It would be so cool if there were homeopathic psychiatric residential places! I can dream!
What I have gained from this thread is that I totally want to celebrate my level of recovery and current state of health. Although it's not perfect, it's so much better than it used to be. I think it's as we get more well we start to look at what happened when we were more ill, as well as when we feel more able to cope we look at what might and what might not have helped us cope when the going was really rough.
I'll come back and reply to people individually when I get back from my GP's.
So yeah basically what helps me (realized i'd never answered hazel's question!), is if my case manager were to actually initiate contact and do the home visits she's supposed to do and actually ask me questions. I know that's probably asking too much, but I am so bad at asking for help. I might be able to text or email her (not sure if I can do either, she doesn't talk to me much), but I really need someone telling me it's ok to talk and that I'm not bothering them. I feel like I get ignored by her for the clients that call her 24/7. So yeah, fixing the system to where professionals understand whether you want to be contacted or if you prefer to contact them (i'm obviously the former), would be good. They should ask you up front or something. That would really help. I have to say if that were to happen I would probably have not gone to the hospital so many times. The only reason i used to go so much was cause I knew no other way to ask for help. If I walked into a hospital I was forced to talk. It was somehow easier. But if professionals could initiate contact with me I would probably be fairly honest and wouldn't get to the desperate point. I no longer have ANY desire to go to the hospital, which now means I will probably do neither unfortunately. I know it's not their fault but I wish I could get just a little more care. It would also help if they didn't push the meds so much so you don't feel like every time you have an issue you're going to be put on a med or added a fourth medication or put up to the near highest dose. (actual examples of what's happened to me)
I've never really had the problem of having meds pushed at me... in fact I had to ask to be put on medication and I'm glad I did as I can function a little better now. I mean, still can't go outside or speak to people properly, but I can now walk around my flat and cope with being alone for a couple of hours without trying to harm/kill myself...
I guess professionals maybe think that if they ask dirrectly they will not get an honest answer?
Looking back there are a couple of times in my life where I'm kind of supprised thqat I didn't end up hospitalised... ended up in hospital for physical type things alot, including suicide attempts and severly low BMI, but never been hospitalised in a psychiatric mannor. Then again they generally just "patched me up" or increased my weight and then let me go, half the time with no-little follow up...
I refuse to even go to A&E anymore as I am on a first name basis with half the staff as I've been there so much I just treat myself now, which probably isn't a great plan... But as has been said the physical state of a person shouldn't really be the main contributor to the decision of hospitalisation.
I've been looking on line to see if I could find any official guidelines to psychiatric hospitalisation, but there don't seem to be any would be interesting to know what they judge the decision on... though, I guess it may be just on proessionals own judgement as everyone is different and people may react in different ways when they are not coping
Katie, I think what you need to take from this thread is that people recognise that you are ill and struggle alot but that you have the strength and support in place. It doesn't mean you are any less ill just because you haven't been in hospital, section or otherwise.
...............I saw people in there with my illness who are in there with bpd and have been in there months and months and how it has somehow taken away their own coping methods and made them institutionalised, their behaviour is accepted when it should not be, it should be challenged. Yes, in a way, they were immature despite being much older than me. ...
I do take that from this thread, thanks Carrie.
Because I have borderline/dependent pd tendencies [also avoidant. lovely mixture!] that very much applies. My treatment is to enable me to develop independence and social skills and have relationships. This is where therapeutic communities are so good - although with the right kind of support network in place, life 'outside' can be like a therapeutic community. How can I learn to cope with the unpredictability of random strangers if I'm not around them?
I've always had a degree of immaturity in an emotional-dependency type sense. Being 'forced' to engage with adults my age and older, in small doses, as well as younger people without feeling the same age as them [hard when you have a teenage type part!] is all part of it.
I've not explained this as very well as I'd hoped. But I hope it is at least a bit clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshine
I have been in hospital both on sections and informal but i think it is so great that you have never been in one! it shows strenght that i did not have (when i was so against living) and you should be very proud of that.
I was thinking a bit on these lines earlier today. How therapy and homeopathy is supporting the nurturance of my wish to live. Like Frued's Life Drive and Death Drive. Bringing me more to life. That is what good support does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow-light
But I think alot of the time it's not a matter of how bad or ill someone is but how well they are coping and what is seen as being best for them that determines their treatment or hospitalisation. The fact that you have not been hospitalised just shows that people recognise your strength and ability to cope
Not degree of illness, but how you cope with that illness. Totally. I know there are exceptions, but that is definitely something I really agree with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artychik
I can see your point about how it seems to be a bit of a competition as to how many diagnoses, sections, meds you've been on etc (although that thought makes me despair)
but - you have managed to stay out of hospital, you have a treatment team, you are actively engaging with the support you are receiving, I think that says a lot about your inner resources and really, good on you. It certainly doesn't invalidate your experiences or your suffering.
There are not just two options of either being totally fine or being hospitalised. There is an awful lot in between. :)
Thank you. :) Indeed it isn't all about extremes. There is so much inbetween. And yeah, the despair. The competition mindset. Part of me is that way inclined, but not all of me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Degausser
I think it's fantastic that you've never been hospitalised, it really shows a lot of courage and inner strength that I'm sure many of us would like to have. Personally I believe the admissions I had when I was a bit younger for depression/self harm stuff, before psychosis made hospital unavoidable, would have been avoidable had I been a little maturer, been a bit more of a fighter and engaged in therapy better. Sometimes I do sense a bit of competition on RYL, but honestly, for me feeling 'inferior' for never being sectioned is easier to deal with than causing myself more harm and getting sectioned, hospitals are horrible places at the best of times!
I agree with you totally on the part I've bolded. Me too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShyGirlEiana
Katie, I can really relate to this. I struggle with feeling like my problems are not as legitimate as other people's because I've *only* been diagnosed with depression or because I've *only* been emotionally abused.
And part of me knows that's ridiculous - only depression? only emotional abuse? There's no "only" about it! Looking at another person with those same issues, I'd never deny the seriousness of them. I know how much they can affect a person's life!
Yet, I still feel like my problems are less legitimate, less real. Like I'm exaggerating and somebody's going to see right through me and tell me I'm just being dramatic and to get over it. I guess those fears probably stem from back in high school when I wasn't taken seriously.
It's like my problems were invalidated so much that now I crave that validation. I need to know that someone takes me seriously. That my problems are legitimate, and I'm not just making it all up.
But it seems like no matter how much validation I get, it's never enough. I'm still afraid someone's going to turn around and accuse me of making it all up. So I can understand the wanting a label or wanting to be hospitalized as proof that things really are that bad.
I absolutely know what you're talking about. Me too.
I think that this frame of thinking, wanting proof etc, can come about when one hasn't been listened to for a lot of their life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by what_the?
Wow.
I don't think that hospital admission is anything to be proud of, at all. I think that it can actually be a dangerous thing, making people iller, removing all responsibility.
I know that when I have been in hospital, I've found it very hard to adjust to being back in the "real world" even only after a couple of days, because everything just seems so so difficult, you don't have people there all the time to do things for you. So I want to echo everyone else and say that it's a great reflection on your strength that you've avoided hospital, and if anything it shows that your struggles have been as hard, if not harder than those who have been admitted.
I know for me, that the fact that I find it hard to be in the 'real world' due to my sensitivities and the trauma and abuse caused thought-distortions with the resulting behaviours, is significant and a just cause for keeping me in the community - how much harder would it be to adjust to life exposed etc if I had been 'protected' from it's vulnerabilities and responsibilities for even a while?.. It's already hard to be out in life, so being away from it and going back to it - defeats the object, really.
And, thank you. :) Struggles indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPlaceToFall
i dont think you can define levels of illness.
my view on the young people being hospitalised (from personal experience) is that they are too young and immature to 'cope' on the outside.
I mean, if i had tried, i could have coped and probably been better if i had stayed home but at the time i didnt want help, i didnt think of consequences, i didnt care. i would be in and out of general hospital each week and in the end psychiatric care was all that could keep me from doing that. but it was immaturity, it wasnt that i was 'extremely ill'...i was ill but not terribly.
Now i can sit and think about consequences of my actions, think of other people and find other coping measures other than self destructive methods that landed me where i was before. I still struggle with all those behaviours but cope alot better.
I dont know if this makes sense?
I think young people will look back and have regrets about the sections and fighting against people who are trying to help.
I certainly do, even though i took a positive thing away from each admission i wish i had never wasted so much of my teenage life in hospital.
So i dont think hospital can define peoples level of illness.
but i do think people that havent been in hospital and suffer with such complex problems such as yourself are so inspirational. I know you struggle so much but you are still here and you still battle through each problem as it arises.
Thank you for the insights, that's really helpful, it helps me understand more. And, it makes sense. :)
Also, thank you. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by frozenfairytale
I think so many young people have been in the hospital either because they have met overzealous professionals who think hospital is the way to stop mental illness. Or the fact that the world has changed and many teenagers have seen suicide as almost normal and so they become more and more determined to do it no matter what anyone says, making hospital the only possible resort to keep them from dying or seriously harming themselves. It's that the stigma isn't as much there as it was twenty years ago (it is, but there are circles of friends who accept mental illness almost as cool whereas that didn't really exist before), so I think young people are more comfortable really hurting themselves. That's not to say their problems aren't serious, but I think they have less restraint since it's more accepted in some subcultures, so they are in need of more desperate measures. so they are probably ill, but they probably wouldn't have actually acted on it quite as much had it not been for society.
And it can become a competition thing among teens who feel they have nothing else. I don't judge people for that, it's just an unfortunate turn of young society. It also could be a form of rebellion. Teens are naturally prone to rebel against their parents/authority, and so acting out on suicidal thoughts rather than seeking help can be a form of rebellion. I am NOT saying this is the case with all teens/young adults, but I think it might explain your question as to why so many young people have been through intensive treatments.
Thanks also for your insights.
Yes, there is so much less stigma than 20 years ago. Totally. Even in the past 10 years or so even.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vetty
i think it is brilliant that you have stayed at home. staying in the real world must really help you deal with your illness, and help your recovery. hospitals never really help anyone, they just artifically keep people safe while they can't do it for themselves.
i think it also shows the gap between the care that the private sector provides and the nhs.
well done!
Thank you, and, I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow-light
.... seems to imply that anyone who has not been hospitalised is automaticatally not as bad off as someone who has been hospitalised.
I don't think that is right. People can go through EXACTLY the same experiances or EXACTLY the same diagnosis and deal with it differently.
Absolutely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Droplet
This whole post makes me feel a little insecure, angry? Something, I'm not quite sure what. But I can see why that is and why it is tainted by my own experiences. I don't know where I count myself. I see myself as the one in the middle. I spent my teenage years in and out of units quite severely (but I don't know if I ever believed I was ill 'enough') and it has really messed me up. It's probably the number 1 thing on my mind a lot of the time even though I was discharged last in the summer, so this thread stirs up a lot of emotion. I think you said jealous wasn't the right word? But I feel like I have not 'made' myself, but that hospital has affected so much of my life that it has in effect 'made' a lot of me. I'm angry at that. At the hospital and at myself for letting myself go through that. But confused too - as I have genuinely had some of the best times of my life their which is really confusing and... wrong? :(
Miranda, how're you feeling about this now? I hear your anger and insecurity and confusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
And Katie, I'm really glad that you can finally be open and honest with your treatment team. I hope to do that someday, (if this has already been asked then apologies) have you spoken to them about your views in this thread about the severity of what you feel?
I've not spoken to my treatment team, no. The thing is that the most severe things have been in the past. The general acknowledgement is that things are difficult and I do really struggle, and that I'm slowly and steadily getting better. In therapy yesterday I started to look more clearly at my breakdown when I was 24. I basically spent a whole week in bed, barely ate, couldn't cry, and was convinced I was dying of Hodgkin's Lymphoma which was spreading into my brain and womb. I did emerge from it - I had a blood test which I MADE the doctor have done, which came back clear. But back then I was not in treatment, and not aware even what I was suffering from had a name. I was very lonely, and under a great deal of pressure at work - self and work induced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Leopard
Why is it so threatening for there to be elements of truth in both sides of this yes there can be a feeling that if you have been in hospital you are 'sicker' but also surely we should commend someone who copes with feeling so unsafe and isolated in the world and not conclude they are not struggling as much. Surely the only valid viewpoint is to listen and try to understand the heart behind what is being said after all we are all here because we need validation and connection not competition and judgement.
I agree totally. Thank you. :)
I don't know if anyone read ALL that, but if you did, well done!
Might that be because NICE guidelines are published by condition,not treatment? If that were the case then the guidelines for hospitalisation might exist,but you'd have to search through each condition to get them all. I've had a quick glance at the one for depression and that seems to be the case.
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