After all the recent fuss about the alleged use by Andrew Mitchell, the Tory Chief Whip, of the term "pleb", I was amused to read the following in the letters page of the "i" newspaper yesterday ...
"Strange how one alleged use of the word "pleb" has caused enormous controversy when frequent use of the word "toff" by Labour politicians causes not a stir" - Mike Lavous, Farnborough.
There are always double standards in politics. :p
I guess part of the problem is the majority of votes could be considered plebs, and the majority of politicians considered toffs, hence a bit of a class divide.
It doesn't matter where you come from; it matters where you go.
No-one gets remembered for the things they didn't do.
We won't all be here this time next year,
so while you can take a picture of us.
We're definitely going to hell,
but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Its ridiculous that they spend their time insult one an other, grow up!
There are times to stay put, and what you want will come to you.
But there are times to go out into the world and find such a thing for yourself.
I aint no abacus but you can count on me.
I agree Tony. To call someone a "pleb" seems to be a massive insult, whereas a "toff" is seemingly totally normal. Or to call someone a "Tory" (even if they aren't!) which often comes with some rather extreme venomous undertones to it.
I think the thing with this is, its less acceptable for well off people to look down on the less well off than it is for people who arent well off to say things about people who are
He was no longer jean valjean but no. 24601 -les miserable
Some of life's mysteries will never be solved, such as why, after spending an entire evening listenong to Bach, do I find myself humming "the birdie song".......
I am reaching, but i fall, and the stars are black and cold, as i stare into the void of a world that cannot hold- les miserables
Scaredy-cat, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Those who are fortunate enough to be financially better off, or to have enjoyed a better education, have no automatic right to talk down to, still less insult, those who are less advantaged. It is gross bad manners and highly arrogant. Those guilty are, in my book, simply not gentlemen - proven so by their behaviour - a far worse crime than being or not being a "toff".
That said, there seems to be a current tendency in these times of austerity for the "have nots" to be prepared to throw vicious and unjustified insults at the "haves" (most of whom have worked hard, showed talent in their careers, paid all their taxes -which help support those unable to contribute to the pot - and probably saved what they could for the future). It is grossly unfair for them to be treated as pariahs because of what they've achieved and contributed to the wealth of the country. This is the doctrine of envy at its worst.
And referring back to an earlier comment, I question whether the majority in the House of Commons are toffs - whatever that term actually means. What matters much more is whether they are dedicated to their constituents and to the good of the country. If toffs are merely people who can trace their families back so many generations in, say, Debretts, what the hell does that really mean? Everybody has ancestors, some good, some bad. What matters surely is how someone behaves today, what consideration and what generosity they show to those around them now.
So for Gawd's sake let's stop throwing envy-driven insults around and get on with the real business of working to make our own and others lives better. And just for the record, had Andrew Mitchell been an officer of mine and had he said what he's reputed to have said to a soldier I would have sacked him!
I think the thing with this is, its less acceptable for well off people to look down on the less well off than it is for people who arent well off to say things about people who are
In a somewhat similar way, it's more socially acceptable to insult 'thin' girls, than it is 'fat', at least in terms of language used in the media. Terms like skinny-malinky, stick insect, etc are used, whereas on the other end of the scale it's curvy or real women.
My last post seems to have killed this thread dead, when I'd hoped it might stimulate comments/discussion. Oh well, you can't win'em all!
As to definitions, here we're on highly dangerous ground. Strictly speaking a "pleb" is a member of the plebisariat, the common herd - my dictionary gives it as plebeian, a person of lower classes (those with a greater recollection of Latin are welcome to correct me). For Andrew Mitchell to have called a policeman doing his duty a pleb was grossly offensive and quite unforgivable (if of course he actually did so).
As to "toff", my rather ancient dictionary defines it as a distinguished person or a "swell" - definitions which I would regard as well out of date in today's world. Rather, I suspect the term is used these days to describe someone from a privileged background and/or who speaks with an "upper-class" accent. I must confess to having been described myself (by a pleb!!!) as a toff merely because I speak as a former Army officer! It's not actually my fault, I'm not distinguished (apart from being Harley's Dad!) and I'm certainly not wealthy. I just speak that way!
All of which suggests that despite all that has gone on over the past 50 or more years in terms of social engineering, we in UK are still very highly class-conscious - rightly or more probably wrongly. But I would contend that it starts as much from the bottom as it does from the top - whatever the top actually is!
Its all a bit silly. I sometimes get 'accused' of being 'posh' (like its something ive done) because i have a different accent to the people around me. And i just stand there and thing, what the hell difference does it make? Why would i be insulted, why would i care? Id rather sound like i do than like the people around me, but thats because its an accent i find ugly. I just dint understand why wealth or social stainding should be used as insults
He was no longer jean valjean but no. 24601 -les miserable
Some of life's mysteries will never be solved, such as why, after spending an entire evening listenong to Bach, do I find myself humming "the birdie song".......
I am reaching, but i fall, and the stars are black and cold, as i stare into the void of a world that cannot hold- les miserables
In a somewhat similar way, it's more socially acceptable to insult 'thin' girls, than it is 'fat', at least in terms of language used in the media. Terms like skinny-malinky, stick insect, etc are used, whereas on the other end of the scale it's curvy or real women.
Looking at the coverage of Lady Gaga's recent weight gain, the huge coverage on Kim Kardashian losing weight and all the other countless examples in every woman's magazine and you will quickly reconsider that. The positive view on 'curvy' women is an incredibly new thing and will no doubt be short lived. However as always with the main stream media it is still a completely unacceptable view of women, they are still telling us how we should look.
Tony I would say that it comes from the top more than the bottom (Though I do say this coming from the bottom so am probably a bit bias) Being constantly looked down on is a horrible thing and unless you're actually going through you won't notice it as much, that's nothing against anyone from 'The Top' though! It's quite similar to the socially acceptable level of casual sexism that goes on in our lives every day. Most young men will feel that sexism is nowhere to be found other than the blatant obvious places but as the attitudes and comments are not directed at them they are understandably, less aware of it and just don't see it.
I think the attitude of most people at 'The bottom' is usually 'It's about the person and the people not the size of their house' though I ofcourse admit there are also a fair number of people will outright dislike someone based purely on wealth (disgusting) Honestly however, in my own personal experience I've met more people with wealth who undoubtedly think of themselves as superior to those who are not well off than those who don't think about it.
I work in an upmarket cafe in a nice part of town, the rudeness I experience on a daily basis is insane, I'm behind a till, I'm they're to serve, I'm not a real person. That's how it feels.
But still, I'd never judge a person or a family based on wealth. It doesn't mean anything in the long run and I think people who have had to go without for a long time understand that a lot more than people who have been mostly comfortable.
I'd also like to point out, just to be balanced that there are some super lovely super wealthy folks out there.
I think we should all stop giving a **** about it and just get the **** along with eachother, to be honest.
Can I also just say how much joy it brought me when The Thick of It made a reference to this very news story in their Leak Inquiry episode last week. ****ing beautiful.
Id rather sound like i do than like the people around me, but thats because its an accent i find ugly. I just dint understand why wealth or social stainding should be used as insults
Do you not see how describing an accent associated with the poorer end of society as 'ugly' is you looking down on it and the people who speak with that accent? That is you using social standing as an insult.
Looking at the coverage of Lady Gaga's recent weight gain, the huge coverage on Kim Kardashian losing weight and all the other countless examples in every woman's magazine and you will quickly reconsider that. The positive view on 'curvy' women is an incredibly new thing and will no doubt be short lived. However as always with the main stream media it is still a completely unacceptable view of women, they are still telling us how we should look.
Yes, but 'celebrities' who are very thin are also picked out by those magazines. They have little else to write about than whether someone is bigger or smaller than last week! I was meaning the non-celebrities, the normal person of the street. Attitudes towards thin women can be very negative.
Quote:
I work in an upmarket cafe in a nice part of town, the rudeness I experience on a daily basis is insane, I'm behind a till, I'm they're to serve, I'm not a real person. That's how it feels.
