just thought i'd add, i've been exactly the same as you at certain points in my life, actually when i was about your age. i don't know if it's normal or not, but just wanted to tell you you're not alone about the dreamer/loner stuff.
I know staff moved it here, I was complaining in general. In my experience, CBT and other mental health techniques are usually promoted as a way to control autistic behaviours, and are rarely successful except for potentially masking their difficulties. Autism is essentially about the environment being utterly unsuited to people with the condition, not the person being somehow flawed or needing to change. They flourish in environments that bring out the best in them, without enforced behavioural alteration. I don't know if there's a more appropriate forum for this, but I wanted to distinguish between ASD's and mental health issues, as they are poles apart, and I don't like that line being blurred.
That's cool, is Autism a Pervasive Developmental Disorder or did I read that wrong somewhere? Just wondering, I get interested learning about mental health problems and - separately - Autism and other such diagnoses.
That's cool, is Autism a Pervasive Developmental Disorder or did I read that wrong somewhere? Just wondering, I get interested learning about mental health problems and - separately - Autism and other such diagnoses.
Lol I appreciated the "separately". Asperger's Syndrome is a form of autism, and can sometimes be called Pervasive Developmental Disorder or considered as being parallel to that. If you want more info I shall point you here:
I don't see why ASD should not be put together with other MH disorders. No CBT might not be a cure, but neither is it for Schizophrenia.
ASD disorders include deficits in cognition and behavioural control etc, this is a neuro-developmental disorder, and as such is a pole apart from a broken leg. Such deficits can certainly be discussed with reference to psychological and mental factors.
You could argue that Schizophrenia is neurophysiological and therefore not suited to 'mental health' labels, if you were going to argue that for autism.
I have been taught by one of the largest and most prolific researchers into Autism in the country after she did a brief research period at my university, and she actually did mention CBT as an excellent method of teaching people with autism/aspergers how to use insight etc.
I don't see why ASD should not be put together with other MH disorders. No CBT might not be a cure, but neither is it for Schizophrenia.
ASD disorders include deficits in cognition and behavioural control etc, this is a neuro-developmental disorder, and as such is a pole apart from a broken leg. Such deficits can certainly be discussed with reference to psychological and mental factors.
You could argue that Schizophrenia is neurophysiological and therefore not suited to 'mental health' labels, if you were going to argue that for autism.
I have been taught by one of the largest and most prolific researchers into Autism in the country after she did a brief research period at my university, and she actually did mention CBT as an excellent method of teaching people with autism/aspergers how to use insight etc.
/waffley response sorry.
ASD should not be lumped into MH because they should not be treated by Mental Health Services that encourage people to talk about their feelings when autistics lack that capacity. I have been through MH systems and I have been through targeted autistic spectrum services - one resulted in attempted suicide and one resulted in me spontaneously recovering from any self-destructive desires. Three guesses which was which?
Autism is factually neuro-genetic. There is no definite genetic link for schizophrenia as of yet.
What was her name then? I'm aware of all the prolific researchers and authors on the topic.
I have been treated by mental health teams in 3 different areas and some have been helpful and others completely abysmal and led to my damaged tendons, severe allergic reactions (now) to paracetamol, missing a chunk of my tongue from seizures...etc. You can't simply compare one and the other.
Also, of course specifically targeted teams will work better than one general one. Specific ED units and ED nurses work much better with EDs than just a general CMHT, but that doesn't mean that you would say EDs are not mentally relevant.
Basically, a lot of disorders carry genetic linkage, at what point do you draw the line? Many people with autism/ASD suffer from other mental health conditions as a result of their illness including depression, anxiety etc. My uncle has Aspergers (he is a consultant surgeon, also) and has become very depressed as he is unable to interact with people, so he is seeing a counsellor and on ADs, should he have all his support removed?
Dr Sue Leekam
Last edited by Wellingtons : 10-08-2009 at 12:58 AM.
Reason: edit removed so my uni isn't so obvious!
By the way I am not saying that ASD is strictly a mental health condition, as most certainly it is a developmental disorder. HOWEVER I do disagree that people should be untreated by MH teams if needed, and be ostracised when in need of compassion and help: two things MH teams are *supposed* to offer.
Leekam: Biography
I am interested in the cognitive and social development of children with autism. A major problem for children with autism is their difficulty with social interaction. I am investigating the source of this difficulty and its consequences for symbolic development. Our recent findings suggest that children with autism have impaired ability to orient to social stimuli in contrast to non-social stimuli. This problem is related to the later developing ability to use 'joint attention' acts of gaze-following, pointing etc. In new studies we are investigating the relationship between social orienting and joint attention and the emergence of communicative signals and symbolic skills.
In other work on the diagnosis of autism I am examining the developmental relationship between social impairments and other symptoms of autism. In collaboration with colleagues at the National Autistic Society, we have developed a new diagnostic instrument designed to study developmental change and the dimensional nature of autistic spectrum disorders .
Her book/ book sections and journal articles for you to peruse. Publications Books: sections
Leekam, S.R. & McGregor, E. 2007. Integrating neuro-cognitive, diagnostic and intervention perspectives in autism. In Autism: An Integrated View:Perspectives from Neurocognitive, Clinical and Intervention. Nunez, M., Williams, K., Gomez, Juan-Carlos & Mcgregor, E. Blackwell.
Leekam, S. & Wyver, S. 2005. Beyond 'modalarity' and innateness: Sensory experience, social interaction and symbolic development in children with autism and blindness. In Autism and blindness: Research and reflections. L. Pring. London: Whurr. 26-49.
Leekam, S.R. 2005. Developmental and Behavioral Profiles of Children With Autism. In New Directions in Autism: The Future is Now. J. Martos, P.M. Gonzalez, M. Llorente & C. Nieto Jessica Kingsley Publications /Asociacion de Padres de Personas con Autismo.
Leekam, S.R. 2005. Language comprehension difficulties in children with autistic spectrum disorders. In Cognitive Bases of Children’s Language Comprehension Difficulties. K. Cain & J. Oakhill
Leekam, S.R. 2005. Why do children with autism have a joint attention impairment? In Joint attention: Communication and other minds. N. Eilan, C. Hoerl, T. McCormack & J. Roessler Oxford University Press.
Journal papers: academic
Fletcher-Watson, S. Colli, J.M, Findlay, J. M. & Leekam, S.R. 2009. The development of change blindness: Children's attentional priorities whilst viewing naturalistic scenes. Developmental Science12(3): 438 - 445. (Additional information) (View publication online)
Fletcher-Watson, S., Leekam, S. R., Findlay, J. M. & Stanton, E. C. 2008. Brief Report: Young adults with autism spectrum disorder show normal attention to eye-gaze information—evidence from a new change blindness paradigm. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders38(9): 1785-1790 (Additional information) (View publication online)
Leekam, S. R., Perner, J. L., Healey, L. & Sewell, C. 2008. False signs and the non-specificity of theory of mind: Evidence that preschoolers have general difficulties in understanding representations. British Journal of Developmental Psychology
Fletcher-Watson, S., Findlay, J. M., Leekam, S. R. & Benson, V. 2008. Rapid detection of person information in a naturalistic scene. Perception37(4): 571-583. (Additional information) (View publication online)
Perner, J. & Leekam, S. R. 2008. The curious incident of the photo that was accused of being false: Issues of domain specificity in development, autism and brain imaging. Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology61(1): 76-89. (Additional information) (View publication online)
Leekam, S.R., Nieto, C. Libby, S., Wing, L. & Gould, J. 2006. Describing the sensory abnormalities of individuals with autism. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders (Additional information)
Fletcher-Watson, S., Leekam, S.R., Turner, M. & Moxon, L. 2006. Do people with autism spectrum disorders have normal scope and content of attention? British Journal of Psychology97(4): 537-554. (Additional information)
Leekam, S. R. & Ramsden, C. A. 2006. Dyadic orienting and joint attention in preschool children with autism. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders36(2): 185-197. (Additional information) (View publication online)
Honey, E. Leekam, S.R., McConachie, H.R. & Turner, M. 2006. Repetitive behaviour and play in typically developing children and children with autism. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders
Tandos, J., Leekam, S., McConachie, H., Meins, E., Parkinson, K., Wright, C., Turner, M., Arnott, B., Vittorini, L. & Le Couter, A. 2006. Repetitive behaviours in typically developing 2-year-olds. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry
Coull, G, Leekam, S. & Bennett, M. 2006. Simplifying second-order belief attribution: What facilitates children performance on measures of conceptual understanding. Social Development15(2): 260-275. (Additional information)
Lopez, B., Leekam, S.R. & Arts, G. 2005. How central is Central Coherence? Autism
Lopez, B., Hadwin, J., Donnelly, N. & Leekam, S. R. 2004. Face processing in high-functioning adolescents with autism: Evidence for weak central coherence? Visual Cognition11(6): 673-688. (Additional information)
Leekam, S.R. 2004. Reconstructing children's understanding of the mind: Reflections. Social Development27(1): 113-114. (Additional information)
Hughes, C. & Leekam, S.R. 2004. What are the links between theory of mind and social relations? Review, reflections and new directions for studies of typical and atypical development. Social Development13(4): 590-619. (Additional information)
Lopez, B. & Leekam, S. R. 2003. Do children with autism fail to process information in context? Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry44(2): 285-300. (Additional information) (View publication online)
Leekam, S. R., Libby, S., Wing, L., Gould, J. & Taylor, C. 2002. The Diagnostic Interview for Social and Communication Disorders: Algorithms for ICD-10 Childhood Autism and Wing & Gould Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry43(3): 327-342. (Additional information) (View publication online)
Wing, L., Leekam, S. R., Libby, S., Gould, J. & Larcombe, M. 2002. The Diagnostic Interview for Social and Communication Disorders: Background, inter-rater reliability and clinical use. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry43(3): 307-325. (Additional information) (View publication online)
Leekam, S.R., Lopez, B. & Moore, C. 2000. Attention and joint attention in preschool children with autism. Developmental Psychology36(2): 261-273. (Additional information)
Leekam, S., Libby, S., Wing, L., Gould, J. & Gillberg, C. 2000. Comparison of ICD-10 and Gillberg criteria for Asperger syndrome. Autism4(1): 11-28. (Additional information)
Prior, M., Eisenmajer, R., Leekam, S.R., Wing, L., Gould, J. & Ong, B. 1998. Are there subgroups within the autistic spectrum? A cluster analysis of a group of children with autistic spectrum disorders. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry39(6): 893-902. (Additional information)
Leekam, S.R., Hunnisett, E. & Moore, C. 1998. Targets and cues: Gaze-following in children with autism. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry39(7): 951-962. (Additional information)
Leekam S., Baron-Cohen, S., Perrett, D. & Milders, M. 1997. Eye-direction detection: A dissociation between geometric and joint attention skills in autism. British Journal of Developmental Psychology15(1): 77-95. (Additional information)
Journal papers: online
Leekam, S., Tandos, J., McConachie, H., Meins, E., Parkinson, K., Wright, C., Turner, M., Arnott, B., Vittorini, L. & Le Couteur, A. 2007. Repetitive behaviours in typically developing 2-year-olds. Journal of Child Psychology and PsychiatryAdvance online publication. (Additional information) (View publication online)
Last edited by Wellingtons : 10-08-2009 at 12:57 AM.
Reason: Not sure if that link works.
Having myself been diagnosed with Asperger's at 15, naturally, I was interested in this post. Seems to have become more an argument about what autism is than a thread offering advice to a worried teenager. I think most people have missed the point.
Keron, I would advise you to talk to your school or college as soon as possible if you think you have a learning disability of some sort, as some kind of learning support may well be helpful even without a diagnosis.
In relation to the rest of the post, I find it slightly annoying, even a little offensive when autism or ASD's are confused with mental illnesses, but I realise that not everyone has any knowledge of autism or AS at all, and it is up to those of us that do to educate those who don't.
Also I found some of the links quite interesting, so thank you for those.
Last edited by Red Rain : 10-08-2009 at 08:27 PM.
Reason: spelling mistake
"you're telling me I'm stuck here with you?"
"No.. I'm stuck here with you."
I have been treated by mental health teams in 3 different areas and some have been helpful and others completely abysmal and led to my damaged tendons, severe allergic reactions (now) to paracetamol, missing a chunk of my tongue from seizures...etc. You can't simply compare one and the other.
My point is that autism is a different kettle of fish entirely, and every professional I saw pre-diagnosis thought my inability to communicate and literal interpretation of their advice/comments to be rude and uncooperative, thus labelling me as difficult and totally hindering my recovery. I think ASD services should be separate and MH pros should be trained to refer someone outside their system and INTO an ASD specific system if they exhibit any of the symptoms, not keep them in MH and believe they are depressed or awkward.
Offering compassion to someone with autism is very different to offering it to someone without. I would rather have had no "support" than had them interfere with my life and well-being. Once someone has been settled into an ASD specific system, they could be referred to counsellors or psychologists, but ONLY those who are trained in the condition, lest it do more harm than good.
You wouldn't have an unmedicated schizophrenic talk to a counsellor who had never heard of schizophrenia, nor should someone who is untrained in the field of autism ever try to offer advice to them: our brains are wired differently and there is no room for discussion on that.
The genetic link involved in autism is a lot stronger than mental health conditions, which are often influenced by the behaviour of the adults involved in the child's upbringing/their environment. Autism develops at a certain age, in every situation, and there is always someone in the family who also has it.
I shall explore the links later, but that seemed to refer to a diagnostic tool, not CBT?
I think ASD services should be separate and MH pros should be trained to refer someone outside their system and INTO an ASD specific system if they exhibit any of the symptoms, not keep them in MH and believe they are depressed or awkward
As far as I'm aware this IS what they do, certainly in my case it was. I was at first seen by a psychiatrist, who refered me to a psychologist, who then sent me to a specialist in autism and autistic spectrum disorders. Unfortunately though, getting stuck in one system works both ways. Once I was diagnosed as Asperger's, I was stuck in a system concerned soley with my social skills and learning support. My anxiety and depression along with other possible mental health issues are still left untreated after more than six years.
I don't think that simply passing people with an ASD, or a suspected ASD into a completely separate system is the right thing to do. Mental health professionals need an understanding of autistic spectrum disorders in order to do their jobs properly. That doesn't mean people should be dumped in another system once behaviours are recognised, which is equally unequipped to deal with mental health issues.
I think it's also important to note that it can be very difficult to tell the difference between a mental health problem, and an autistic spectrum disorder, especially when the behaviours can be so similar and disorders so difficult to distinguish. I'm sure that once both mental health problems and ASD's have been diagnosed and attended to, there could be room for CBT, if for no other reason than to help people learn to deal with the anxieties experienced by many with an ASD.
Please bear in mind this is just my opinion, based mostly on personal experience. I'm interested to hear anyone elses opinions on the matter.
Last edited by Red Rain : 10-08-2009 at 09:56 PM.
Reason: spelling mistake.. again :)
"you're telling me I'm stuck here with you?"
"No.. I'm stuck here with you."
I don't think your case is very common; from what I've read in newsletters and on the internet my experience is actually closer to the norm. I was, unfortunately, seen by a psychiatrist with no experience of autism. Later on, my GP suggested I had symptoms, and asked that psych in the form of a letter (who hadn't seen me for three years, and had only met me once) if I showed any signs. He stated that I categorically did not, and I was prevented from accessing any autism-related diagnostic services on the NHS because they could see my notes and thought I couldn't have the condition.
A few years later, I was privately assessed and they were very surprised it wasn't picked up sooner - my childhood was utterly stereotypical.
My entire experience of the MH system was that, if I refused to talk to them, they thought I was a horrible child. The fact is, when someone says to me "how do you feel?" I draw a blank, get anxious, and can't respond. I know a lot of people on the autistic spectrum who are like this, and that's why I think the talking therapies are pretty useless unless the pros have a good understanding of autism, as you can acquire labels you don't deserve ("depressed", even "narcissistic" in some cases).
Dealing with secondary mental health conditions could involve liaison between MH and ASD services, but I think it's important to have the autistic symptoms supported by specialist professionals (if need be).
My entire experience of the MH system was that, if I refused to talk to them, they thought I was a horrible child. The fact is, when someone says to me "how do you feel?" I draw a blank, get anxious, and can't respond. I know a lot of people on the autistic spectrum who are like this, and that's why I think the talking therapies are pretty useless unless the pros have a good understanding of autism, as you can acquire labels you don't deserve ("depressed", even "narcissistic" in some cases).
I agree, talking therapies are utterly useless unless you have a good understanding of autism, and I experienced very similar problems. I was thought to be rude and ignorant, expecially when I was engaged in conversation with someone I was unfamiliar with, which resulted in me refusing to talk altogether in unfamiliar situations, or anytime I became anxious, such as when I was asked a question I had difficulties in answering. Most likely many of my mental health issues are caused by the fact that I went undiagnosed as AS for so long.
I agree that my case perhaps is not typical of many peoples experiences of the mental health profession and autism, but it certainly highlights the fact that the mental health profession is changing, and that simply passing a person with AS or another ASD from one system to another may not be enough to deal with all of their problems.
I think overall the mental health profession needs a better understanding of autism and related problems, and if there are to be two separate systems, they need better communication, and perhaps to be more closely linked. Although I understand your point that ASD's and autism are absolutely not mental health problems, wether people with these problems are given the right support has a huge impact on their mental wellbeing.
"you're telling me I'm stuck here with you?"
"No.. I'm stuck here with you."
Most likely many of my mental health issues are caused by the fact that I went undiagnosed as AS for so long.
Oh yeah, that was definitely the cause of mine. Since I got my diagnosis (in May, I think), I've been so much happier people have commented on it frequently, and not engaged in any self-destructive behaviour, nor wanted to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork
I agree that my case perhaps is not typical of many peoples experiences of the mental health profession and autism, but it certainly highlights the fact that the mental health profession is changing, and that simply passing a person with AS or another ASD from one system to another may not be enough to deal with all of their problems.
I think overall the mental health profession needs a better understanding of autism and related problems, and if there are to be two separate systems, they need better communication, and perhaps to be more closely linked. Although I understand your point that ASD's and autism are absolutely not mental health problems, wether people with these problems are given the right support has a huge impact on their mental wellbeing.
I really hope the system is changing, as I don't want anyone else to have their problems worsened by an environment that exacerbates them instead of helping the person.
Yes, I agree. There should be a link. But for now, I support separate services, at least until MH gets its act together a little with regard autism/Asperger's and learns to spot it! I am all for integration and cooperation between the two, though. I think it could benefit a lot of people. My Mum's a counsellor/psychotherapist and has written to the psychiatrist involved in mis-diagnosing me, along with all the services involved, and hopefully things might change things in my region at least. I also think schools need a signficant amount of further training on the topic..
I can't say having a diagnosis made me happier, it was very difficult for me to accept. In a lot of ways it made things more difficult for me. I had no real support offered to me and spent nearly two years out of full time education until a place in a specialist college could be found. There is so little understanding of ASD's and so few services, support is hard to come by. In time I have come to accept that it is not something that is "wrong" with me, I am just different. Which is why I find it almost offensive when people refer to autism as a mental illness, as I'm sure you understand.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that schools need a massive amount of training and education in the area of autism and ASD's. Having my behaviours and needs realised as those of an AS child I perhaps would not have the mental health issues I have today. Almost ALL of the people affected by AS that I have spoken with have admitted it has been a constant battle to get their child or themselves the help and support they need to complete any kind of normal education.
"you're telling me I'm stuck here with you?"
"No.. I'm stuck here with you."
This thread has got quite over the top now... why don't people agree to disagree?
Some think Autism can be helped by CBT, others disagree, but people are not saying it IS a mental health disorder/illness, just some aspects can be helped through methods like CBT.
And people with autism DO have emotions and feelings. I've been to a special needs school where many have autism and they have emotions/feelings. They just have trouble with showing it, but that does not mean they don't have any.
