I don't even know how to reply to some of the comments in here, some people are just very very ignorant of gender identity disorder and being transgender and they clearly do not want to learn anything.
I am no less of a man just because I have a female body, I am a man simple as, its just my body isn't quite right.
"Never be a spectator of unfairness or studpidity. The grave will supply plenty of time for silence." Christopher Hitchens
'When words fail, music speaks'
I am transsexual and homoromantic and proud to be.
btw, the person stops taking the hormones before and during carrying the child and I'm pretty sure it would not be allowed if there was to be damage to either the child or the man
"Never be a spectator of unfairness or studpidity. The grave will supply plenty of time for silence." Christopher Hitchens
'When words fail, music speaks'
I am transsexual and homoromantic and proud to be.
Beautyfiend I share your feeling of disappointment at someone that I really respected holding such consistently discriminatory/in my view inaccurate views. I wouldn't go so far as to name call, but in the nicest way possible yes Jack, I don't know whether you will care or not, but you have somewhat lost my respect.
Well of course I care and especially in your case. However I don't construct opinions on things based on politics. It makes no sense that people can just declare themselves to be one thing or another as if constructing an outfit. Some people will say "there is no set gender identity" and then the same people will say they were born in the wrong body as if a mistake had been made. But how can there be a mistake if nothing is standard?
I don't disparage people that have the identity issue because I know for a small part of population it is a problem. However I can't say 2 women can simply say they are pregnant gay men any more than I can say I am black lesbian trapped in a white guys body. That's just not rational.
Here is a study where 53% of boys with GID had bordeline mothers (conflicted identity themselves) while only 6% of controls did. Something is obvioulsy at work here and not just social gender role oppression.
"Fifty-three percent of the mothers of boys with GID compared with only 6% of controls met the diagnosis for Borderline Personality Disorder on the Diagnostic Interview for Borderlines or had symptoms of depression on the Beck Depression Inventory. Results of the Summers and Walsh Symbiosis Scale suggested that mothers of probands had child-rearing attitudes and practices that encouraged symbiosis and discouraged the development of autonomy."
there has also been a lot of research into how gender is determined in the womb before someone is born and this is believed to be how transgender issues arise.
Me and my sister were both raised exactly the same by the same two parents, who are a heterosexual couple, she is cis gendered and straight and I'm FtM and gay. It has nothing to do with how you are brought up, but its about your hormone levels and what happens in the womb
"Never be a spectator of unfairness or studpidity. The grave will supply plenty of time for silence." Christopher Hitchens
'When words fail, music speaks'
I am transsexual and homoromantic and proud to be.
I don't even know how to reply to some of the comments in here, some people are just very very ignorant of gender identity disorder and being transgender and they clearly do not want to learn anything.
I am no less of a man just because I have a female body, I am a man simple as, its just my body isn't quite right.
I don't know if this was referring to me, but I do want to learn more about it. I asked a question in one of my above posts.
If you lived in a society that didn't have the same male/female 'roles' as we do, how would you know you were in the 'wrong' body? If all humans were equal in terms of opportunity despite having different sexual organs, how would you be able to identify that you were supposed to be born into a body without a penis/boobs?
Surely, rather than being born into a 'wrong' body, it is in face society who is wrong for imposing gender differences upon us? You wouldn't have to feel as though you were supposed to be a male if society didn't differentiate. Unless it's about wanting a penis, in which case I don't really think that's transgendered thinking :P
All genuine questions, just in case I get accused of sarcasm :P I really wanna know!
I don't know if this was referring to me, but I do want to learn more about it. I asked a question in one of my above posts.
If you lived in a society that didn't have the same male/female 'roles' as we do, how would you know you were in the 'wrong' body? If all humans were equal in terms of opportunity despite having different sexual organs, how would you be able to identify that you were supposed to be born into a body without a penis/boobs?
Surely, rather than being born into a 'wrong' body, it is in face society who is wrong for imposing gender differences upon us? You wouldn't have to feel as though you were supposed to be a male if society didn't differentiate. Unless it's about wanting a penis, in which case I don't really think that's transgendered thinking :P
All genuine questions, just in case I get accused of sarcasm :P I really wanna know!
I think its really hard to explain. Its more than just what society see's me as, there really is a feeling of being born in the wrong body. There is extreme sense that your body is wrong, you hate certain things and you crave and long for other certain things. Its really hard to explain to someone who has never experienced the feeling. I hope that helps a little
"Never be a spectator of unfairness or studpidity. The grave will supply plenty of time for silence." Christopher Hitchens
'When words fail, music speaks'
I am transsexual and homoromantic and proud to be.
Just a question frenchhorn, you feel as though you are in the wrong body, I can understand that, but why does that mean your gender or sexual organs are the wrong ones? It could be anything else.. I wonder why you 'blamed' the sense of feelings you had on your gender/sexual organs- what made you think it was that above many other things.
PS, As for the hormones thing, I believe he/she wouldn't carry the baby if it were the wrong conditions, the female body has an astounding ability to naturally abort a damaged foetus and if the necessary hormones to carry a child are there, I am sure the baby would be okay. How do you KNOW testosterone would affect a foetus- show me some evidence and I would consider it. Right now it seems like an unproven argument to cover the fact you think the whole thing is in some way gross. Women with PCOS can have a beard. Do they birth abnormal children- no.
Just a question frenchhorn, you feel as though you are in the wrong body, I can understand that, but why does that mean your gender or sexual organs are the wrong ones? It could be anything else.. I wonder why you 'blamed' the sense of feelings you had on your gender/sexual organs- what made you think it was that above many other things.
because all the things I feel wrong are linked to my gender or sexual organs, when I was about 4/5 I wished I could grow a penis, I have always hated having no facial hair and its causes me great distress, having a female chest has caused me great angst and anger etc. so that is why I 'blamed' it on my gender because all the things I feel are wrong are linked to my sex/gender.
"Never be a spectator of unfairness or studpidity. The grave will supply plenty of time for silence." Christopher Hitchens
'When words fail, music speaks'
I am transsexual and homoromantic and proud to be.
Okay, I didn't intend to make it sound as challenging as it seems to have been taken. I was just curious, because your answer to MeaCulpa/Jodie seemed vague to me. I am sorry if I have upset you, I actually hold admiration for going through the torment that you must feel and coming out of it as you have.
I think its really hard to explain. Its more than just what society see's me as, there really is a feeling of being born in the wrong body. There is extreme sense that your body is wrong, you hate certain things and you crave and long for other certain things. Its really hard to explain to someone who has never experienced the feeling. I hope that helps a little
For the record I don't doubt you for a minute. I don't try to diminish or delegitimise that people can feel that way . I don't make a moral judgment on it per se.
Psychology of identity can be a sticky wicket - and its not all biological imo. As an example I use some soldiers with PTSD. They can acquire a trauma based identity from the stresses they encounter.
Think of how the moon revolves around the earth. If a bigger planet came by it could pull the moon away and the moon would revolve around that. People can have their identities pulled from their core in many ways (trauma, imprinting, intimidation etc). Once that happens they can acquire another identity not organic to them.
This identity usually seeks to complete itself through people, places and things that reinforce that identity. Some guys like to wear women's clothes because it reinforces their mother identity inside them. This often happens because a male never grows beyond the bond with his mom in order to bond with his father identity (who is often too strong or too weak and repels the child back to the mother). A lot of this can take place quite young and so there is no shame in it for the individual. I even say it can be reversed but that's a longer story and if your interested you can PM me about that.
Okay, I didn't intend to make it sound as challenging as it seems to have been taken. I was just curious, because your answer to MeaCulpa/Jodie seemed vague to me. I am sorry if I have upset you, I actually hold admiration for going through the torment that you must feel and coming out of it as you have.
sorry I didn't mean to come acorss as angry or upset, that wasn't my intention.
"Never be a spectator of unfairness or studpidity. The grave will supply plenty of time for silence." Christopher Hitchens
'When words fail, music speaks'
I am transsexual and homoromantic and proud to be.
I'm sure you're not a lazy ****, though as previously said, he'd have stopped the testosterone therapy before pregnancy and I'd have to trust that the physicians treating this person are doing so with caution due to the fact it has never been done before. I assumed wrongly if you do not see this as gross, it was just the feeling I got because of the view it was an 'irresponsible' action to have a baby.
I find the whole thing rather benign. This person is under care, with monitoring and probably a lot more input than the average pregnant woman. I expect the baby would have more care and protection than most. You have smoking pregnant ladies giving birth to a child in an abusive environment everyday and somehow this has become a scandal [maybe because its so shocking when you say a 'man' is pregnant]. I believe so long as the child is born healthy their general well being would be determined by environmental factors. It would be very interesting to find out how this child [grown up maybe] does feel in retrospect and that would be a better judgement of this than anyone else could predict.
To me this is not a man, at least not yet. Men do not carry children, women do, he may still identify his gender as male. In counselling there is the theory that everyone has a male and female 'side' and each is pronounced in differing volumes and in different aspects. Maybe he is more male than female in that respect. I do find it curious however that anyone who felt their female parts were so repulsive and ill-fitting that they needed to have some sort of gender reassignment treatment would wish to carry a child [a very 'womanly' process]. That I just find odd, but obviously only as a lack of understanding from a personal perspective.
Last edited by MissAnonymous : 10-04-2011 at 11:42 PM.
Sex is not based on organs - its based on genes - organs are a result of the genes.
So what if someone goes through life thinking they are female. They look like a woman on the outside, they like pink fluffy things, wearing skirts, etc. Then what if they try to get pregnant, they find they have an XY genotype and internal testicles? Would you call that person a man?
For that matter why do you care if someone wants to live life as a person of the opposite gender? Does it even matter how they even got that way?
For that matter why do you care if someone wants to live life as a person of the opposite gender? Does it even matter how they even got that way?
Yes it matters how they got that way. Such a thing as "normal" exists no matter if people like it or not. I don't care what they live as but 2 women pretending to be gay men with one inseminated by a stranger is cruel way to raise a kid because they will absolutely get their head screwed around - especially if its a boy. Kids get freaked out just learning they are adopted never mind be told their rents are female gay "guys" inseminated by who knows who. Kids need a father not a sperm donor. Its psychotic to pretend this woman is a pregnant gay man and anyone who believe that will believe anything - which is fine but its appalling to bring a kid up with that kind of dysphoric, disoriented atmosphere. Imagine white parents telling their white kid "We are really black". This is a dysfunctional and cruel situation as far as kids go - it's a Franken-family and I really don't think these people give a toot tbh.
Last edited by Isoverity : 11-04-2011 at 07:56 AM.
Oh, it's not over one topic =]
But of course you can lose respect for someone over one topic!
This.
And Jack I'm glad you care, although whether it will make any difference remains to be seen.
But anyhoosits back to the topic. I believe that a loving if unconventional family is far better than an unloving conventional family. As for gender identity, provided the child doesn't themselves have GID I think so long as the parents give solid teaching about both their own gender identities (e.g explaining they didn't just 'choose' to be a man one day, they felt they'd been placed in the wrong body etc etc) and the average person's/society's views of gender identity the child has every chance of growing up with a 'normal' gender identity, and to be honest even if they don't, who cares? Someone who is more flexible within themselves to express the masculine and the feminine is always refreshing :)
Also on the comment that people with GID had higher instances of BPD, depression etc. I believe that that is probably more likely due to external factors such as bullying, trans-phobia and the stress of trying to get surgery and to get people around you to accept you as male rather than a problem caused by/in association with the GID itself.
'Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.'
['There is only one thing we say to death. Not today'.']
'We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell. Oscar Wilde
Its hard to dance with the devil on your back. Sydney Carter
Sex is not based on organs - its based on genes - organs are a result of the genes.
While things like pink vs blue are cultural. Basic sex identities are not. Women have more than twice as many hormones as men and have a nurturing nature - they are organically and inherently designed to have children and men are not . Consistent with bonding with young children is the fact women are more emotional than men. Being more emotional si what helps makes them vastly more prone to mood disorders, depression and many other things. Of course there are good things that go with that composition so I'm not being disparaging.
Genes, organs, whatever. 'Sex' is biological/physiological, whereas gender is a much more constructed sociological thing.
Being emotional (which is also another social construct that women are more emotional than men), is not why there are more females diagnosed with depression. It is because women are more likely to tell someone and get it diagnosed in the first place. Men cannot be seen as weak or as needing help, because that is how they have been gendered. Having a penis doesn't make them like that, their socio-cultural gender identity have made them like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeaCulpa
If you lived in a society that didn't have the same male/female 'roles' as we do, how would you know you were in the 'wrong' body? If all humans were equal in terms of opportunity despite having different sexual organs, how would you be able to identify that you were supposed to be born into a body without a penis/boobs?
Surely, rather than being born into a 'wrong' body, it is in face society who is wrong for imposing gender differences upon us? You wouldn't have to feel as though you were supposed to be a male if society didn't differentiate. Unless it's about wanting a penis, in which case I don't really think that's transgendered thinking :P
Jodie, <3
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchhorn
because all the things I feel wrong are linked to my gender or sexual organs, when I was about 4/5 I wished I could grow a penis, I have always hated having no facial hair and its causes me great distress, having a female chest has caused me great angst and anger etc. so that is why I 'blamed' it on my gender because all the things I feel are wrong are linked to my sex/gender.
That is a sex thing, not a gender. Having breasts and no facial hair is a biological thing, not to do with gender.
Genes, organs, whatever. 'Sex' is biological/physiological, whereas gender is a much more constructed sociological thing.
Being emotional (which is also another social construct that women are more emotional than men), is not why there are more females diagnosed with depression. It is because women are more likely to tell someone and get it diagnosed in the first place. Men cannot be seen as weak or as needing help, because that is how they have been gendered. Having a penis doesn't make them like that, their socio-cultural gender identity have made them like that.
Its absolutely not a social construct that women are more emotional than men - just like its not a social construct that men are stronger. Anecdotally people can see its true and piles of studies just confirm it. Women are oceans of hormones where men are ponds. One reason society is so dysfunctional is people try to make false things true just based on their desire to recast reality in ways more suitable to their egos. People make interpretations of society based on how they want to see it and then repeat pseudo-scientific conclusions that they have never really investigated but assume are true.
Below is an article that I just saw today. it mentions one study but you can find gobs more:
"Women naturally more susceptible to stress"
Women are twice as vulnerable to stress as men because of greater sensitivity to a substance produced at times of anxiety, new research suggests.
well i've read this all twice.
as far as i can see in the argument thats taking place, Isoverity is the only one making sense. a few people are just making half arsed attempts at enforcing their own point of view and throwing the dummy out of the pram because they dont like what he is saying.
Their own arguments are just terrible and argued from an emotional stand point rather than attempting to include fact.
The very denial that genes identify you as male/female is testament to this.
i was ok with the woman, who thinks she's a gay man, being pregnant. Now i've realised how extraordinarily ****ed up that is. Of course Im a horrible ,hateful, narrow minded person who probably is a member of the BNP and wants to suppress the rights of people who arent white middle class and christian just for thinking this though right?
Step out of line with the ultra liberals on this site and they want to burn you at the stake.
When life gives you lemons, squirt them in his eye until you get a better gift
