In the margins of the US Presidential election, which is naturally receiving wide coverage here in the UK, I was slightly distressed to be reminded that Obama had earlier in his Presidency directed that Winston Churchill's bust be removed from the White House. I wonder whether this reflected an anti-UK prejudice on the part of Obama, perhaps the result of the alleged treatment of his father in the 1950s arising out of the anti-Mau-Mau campaign, the success of which led to the stabilisation of Kenya and the handover of independence shortly afterwards. And also independence to the rest of the former British Empire.
Were I sitting with President Obama (preferably sharing a bottle of malt whisky!), I would ask him just what the US would have done had it not been for Churchill and his defiance, rallying the whole of the UK, if in the end UK had been successfully invaded and all of Europe had been Nazified? With a military hat on (from the past) I would tell him that no way could the US, despite its huge resources, have retaken a wholly Germanised Europe across 2000 miles of the Atlantic. And where would the US trans-Atlantic relationship
have ended up?
Churchill was mercurial and often illogical (read Field Marshal Sir Alan Brooke's memoires) but he was totally inspirational and one of the very greatest leaders of his age. So I would say to Obama, " of course have your views - but there ain't no way you're ever going to match the greatness of Churchill"!
Tony (views from the US very much invited, and I don't have views as to the outcome of your election, but I do stick up for Churchill!)
Churchill is very popular in the US. He always was popular and became more so the last 10 years or so. I wouldn't judge much by Obama. His father was a Kenyan communist who was already married in Kenya when he married Obama's mother (also a communist). His mentor in his autobiography (Frank Marshall Davis) was also a communist. His racist, anti-American minister of 20 years (Rev Wright) is also a communist. Obama appointed a "green jobs" czar (Van Jones) who founded an organization with a manifesto promoting communism and revolution against American gov. Obama's FCC "diversity czar" has praised Chavez and Castro. Obama's communication director has praised Mao. Putin, Chavez, Castros, Ortega, Communist Party USA have all endorsed Obama. Obama has said he doesn't like US Constitution because it doesn't FORCE wealth redistribution. Of course Obama won't like Churchill - good for Churchill. I had Marxist profs in grad school and knew Obama was one right away. Unfortunately the US isn't very aware of Marxism and really doesn't know what its doing in elections because they have become like charismatic third world elections - celebrity driven. The whole world is getting ready to blow up again - beginning in Mid East - and hardly anyone sees it. Obama is not the problem. Intentionally bad education and media is the problem. Even if Obama loses we have 100 million people on welfare. Of course they will always vote more benefits and be bought off. Just wait until oil goes up and interest rates cause a financial stroke. The global economy is running on fumes and toothpicks and people just sort of trundle on oblivious to it. That won't go on much longer and I advise people to store food etc.
Maybe he just really didn't like the bust? When my parents bought their new house the old owners left a portrait of the queen on the wall, my parents got rid of it, not because we hate the queen, it just didn't look very nice.
So what if Obama didn't want a bust of Churchill in his house, I wouldn't want one in my house either.
We need never be hopeless, because we can never be irreparably broken
Maybe he just really didn't like the bust? When my parents bought their new house the old owners left a portrait of the queen on the wall, my parents got rid of it, not because we hate the queen, it just didn't look very nice.
So what if Obama didn't want a bust of Churchill in his house, I wouldn't want one in my house either.
Yeah I have to agree, personally I don't really give a **** what he does to the decor in his house.
That bust is probably sitting in a room somewher ready to be reinstated when Obama leaves the White House. No big deal.
I think you're reading too much into it, Tony.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.
Don't want to make a big deal out of it, effervescence, but it would have been naive if Obama was merely "improving" the decor - and also insensitive, since he must have known his action would be reported worldwide.
Europe owes a huge debt to the US for their overwhelming share of the joint effort to win WW2 and overthrow the tyranny of Nazi-ism. But the US also owes an equally substantial debt to GB for being the only nation to resolutely defy Germany following the ignominious defeats of Poland, France, Holland and Belgium. And Churchill led and inspired that defiance.
So, while I fully accept Obama's right to do want he wants in the White House, I think whatever he does should take account of the impact it is likely to have elsewhere. And I remain offended that Obama should, deliberately or otherwise, have discarded an emblem representing probably the greatest man of the last century - and one who bound Britain's ties with America so very closely, to the mutual advantage of both our nations ...
since he must have known his action would be reported worldwide.
It's hardly been headline news - I hadn't heard it until you posted. Who finds these things out anyway? Presumably his household staff, who obviously have nothing better to do than to "leak" things to the media....if it were anyone else I bet people would be bleating about privacy.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.
Probably he didnt even think of all that stuff tony. I know hes the president but you cant expect him to try and anticipate everynes reactions to everything he does, and his first priority would be his own citizens anyway, who would not be at all bothered by that. Trying to second guess us too is a bit much to ask
He was no longer jean valjean but no. 24601 -les miserable
Some of life's mysteries will never be solved, such as why, after spending an entire evening listenong to Bach, do I find myself humming "the birdie song".......
I am reaching, but i fall, and the stars are black and cold, as i stare into the void of a world that cannot hold- les miserables
"His first priority would be his own citizens anyway, who would not be at all bothered by that"
Lots of people were bothered by that - and the intentional bowing to other world leaders, telling NASA (space agency) director his main job was to make Muslims "feel good about themselves", banning US oil drilling in the Gulf but encouraging Brazil to do so etc. Obama tends to rule like a hostile foreigner. Getting rid of Churchy was absolutely not a mere act of re-decorating. Neither was making the Dalai Lama exit the back door of White House so his pic would be taken with the garbage. That was to make the communist regime in China happy (they hate the Lamster and Tibet)
No way do I want to make an issue out of this, but for Obama to have said "get Churchill out of here" (or whatever he actually did say to make his wishes known - his household staff would hardly have taken the decision off their own bat) he must have had some motivation for doing so. And I'm therefore curious as to just what Obama has against Churchill - or possibly indeed against UK. I believe it does matter since there is an important and longstanding relationship between our two nations which is of benefit to us both.
And should Obama's views really be coloured by the Mau-Mau campaign, I hope he is aware that not only did the terrorists concerned commit the most horrible and brutal atrocities against white settlers, but also against those of their fellow-Kikuyus who refused to join them. I can't possibly say whether or not the British Army sometimes over-reacted, since it was before my time; if they did I wouldn't try to excuse it - but on the other hand look also at some of the actions of the US Army in Vietnam.
None of which is intended in any way as an attack on the United States. But I'm still left wondering what the hell Churchill (who actually had an American mother) did to warrant being chucked out with the garbage?!
Obama has strong views against the UK - I'm not amazingly sure why everyone over here idolises him - apart from making good memes and being a "cool" guy, he's got alot of disdain for the UK. I can't be bothered to find all of the research but if you spend some time actually digging into the facts, you'll find his actual opinions of UK and lots of parts of Europe aren't very positive.
I side with Tony on this one, he removed the Churchill bust very soon into his first term, and it wasn't to "improve the decor." It's a very passive aggressive move on his part (in my opinion).
I can remember some quotes of his Tony, I'll PM you more on the matter if you're interested, but I can't be bothered to go back through and find all of my references on this subject as I would have to on a public forum just so people don't call bull on what I'm saying.
Weve got obsessions
I want to erase every nasty thought that bugs me every day of every week
Weve got obsessions
You never tell me what it is that makes you strong and what it is that makes you weak.
"I'm not amazingly sure why everyone over here idolises him - apart from making good memes and being a "cool" guy, he's got alot of disdain for the UK'
Yes. The thing to realise is that less and less people understand things like budget deficits and international realtions. Voting is becoming about charisma and candidates chatting about sports on gab shows. Its like picking a contestant on American Idol. If someone smiles and seems cool well that's enough. 41% of voters said their vote was "strongly influenced" by the hurricane that hit NY. After 33 debates this year and 2 billion dollars spent in campaigns a storm was a critical factor in 41% of votes. Scary.
Tony here is agood article written by an African woman than explained part of the problem (it's 4 years old now but still applies)
I support Obama because I am looking to moving to America when I finish uni so I would like a president that will make it so that I do not have to be afraid of who I am when I move and so that I can actually cha ge the gender on my American passport which I would not have been able to do if Romney got in. I also do not really want to be scared for my life. Also, as I am half American and am planning to move there I feel that I can relate to who I would want to be in power.
I hope that makes sense...
The world is just illusion always trying to change me.
You will find wonder wherever you can, and spread joy whenever you are able.
I felt emotions of gentleness and pleasure, that had long appeared dead, divide within me. - Frankenstein.
Oh dear! In my naivety I had hoped that the UK and the US were still friends. Clearly not with Obama at the helm. But whatever modern commentators may say about British imperialism in, say, the 19th Century, it was actually the way of the world in those days and France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, and to some extent the United States itself, were all at it - witness the carve-up of Africa and, to a slightly lesser extent, of parts of the Pacific.
And it's worth noting that GB gave up its Empire comparatively willingly and at great speed in the 50s and 60s - I well remember Harold Macmillan's "wind of change" speech at the time and the resentment in the then Rhodesia at being forced to hand over to the local natives (who then, poor sods, were lumbered with the unspeakable Mugabe who led the country into bankruptcy and, even now, fat and happy, continues to blame British colonialism for all the ills that he has caused his once-rich country).
But if we stand unloved on this side of the Atlantic it will not be the first time that we have stood alone - something that Churchill would have understood and even relished!
Tony (as an aside, to put some of this in perspective, I once discovered that I had been nominated for an award for the officer who had done most for British Army/US Army relations. I didn't get the award and only heard about my nomination later - but if I were to talk to Obama today I would suggest to him that current US/UK relationships are far more important than ill-reported and often exaggerated accounts from the past. I'm beginning to wonder if a chip on the shoulder might just be coming into this?).
Tony it would be a big mistake to interpret US/UK relations thru Obama. Churchill is immensely popular in US. There is a new book about him every week. These days its likely people couldn't even find Kenya on a map. "Mau Mau" would sound like Chinese food. Obama tries to conceal his hostility and seem benign. Its not like he runs about professing to hate UK and then all his voters agree with him.
I think people across Atlantic who have never been to US don't realize how big it is. I know more about what is going on in UK than I know what is going on in many of the 50 states. I couldn't even tell you who the governors of states like Iowa, Oregon, Maine etc are. When you are surrounded by so many states you know nothing about its easy to not recognise other countries in the same way. I've had people here be mad at me because I confused Slovenia with Slovakia. I could easily confuse North and South Dakota the same way.
Hardly anyone talks about UK aside from Harry Potter and the Royals (who have gone down in attention here since Diana - I hardly understood that fascination tbh). Basically public TV is full of British shows and businesses love to hire people with British accents and thats about the extent of consciousness of UK. People don't know US history anymore never mind UK history. 20 years ago everyone knew who Lawrence Olivier was - not today. I will add though that among people who do read history Niall Ferguson is very popular.
One interesting thing is a book written by Obama's half brother in Kenya. His name is George and he said the problem with Kenya is colonialism didn't last long enough. He said "look at Malaysia, Singapore - they did better than Kenya because they were remained colonial longer". He's interesting to listen to in video linked below.
Jack, I entirely accept that we're both pretty ignorant about each other's countries. There's a hell of a lot to learn and I imagine that a comprehensive tour of the US would take perhaps 5 years or more. Whenever I deal with a shop order from the US I try to look up on my atlas just where it's from and of course the distances involved are huge. But I would contend that if Obama wants to make put-downs about UK and its former Empire he should first study the true facts - no such Empire has ever given up its possessions as willingly and, dare I say it, as gracefully as did Great Britain.
As to the US election, I don't want to embark on anything too political here, but it seems as though the black and Hispanic vote won it for Obama. That is of course Democracy - one person, one vote. But I can't help remembering an idea suggested in one of Neville Shute Norway's books (he was a very successful UK author some 50 years ago) that of course everyone should have a vote but that those who contributed more to the State should have extra votes i.e. those who had contributed a high level of tax, those who had served the country in, say, the Police or the Armed Services, those who had enjoyed a high level of education, should all have extra votes according to what they had given. He was of course only flying a kite but, (over that same bottle of malt with Obama!) I would ask him just why an ignorant and uncaring recent citizen should enjoy just as effective a vote as, say, a graduate from a respected university who was contributing perhaps half a million dollars a year to the general economy, and had done so for perhaps 50 years.
And when he came back at me and said "all men are equal, including the blacks and Hispanos" I would say "is that really so, in terms of what each contributes to the State"? I find Neville Shute's suggestion intriguing, and to some extent persuasive, even though it is of course a non-starter.
The reason Romney lost was due to his own base voters. He got 3 million less votes than McCain got in 2008 because people didn't like the fact that after the huge upset election of 2010 the Republicans kept high spending going. It took the US 200 years to hit 1 trillion in debt. Since Obama the US does it every 9 months now. People who understand the math are terrified. if the current low interest rates shoot up there will be a financial stoke that will implode economy in massive fashion. People voted in fear in 2010 and when the Republicans won they went back to Washington and said OK to more Obama spending because they fear media who portray them as throwing old ladies off cliffs etc.
Now instead of admitting their own mistakes they are blaming the minority vote which wasn't the issue. Black voters vote 90% Democrat no matter who runs. Obama brought another 4%. Obama got 71% of Hispanic vote but that is within averages for past 30 years.
Romney thought obama would lose just because the employment was so low. He tried to not be specific and to be polite with Obama. He was strong once in first debate and went way ahead in polls. Then he went vague and squishy again. Lots of people have just not voted and said there wont be change until a collapse and the reality hits.
I agree people getting welfare etc shouldn't be allowed to vote because they only vote for more benefits even if they cant be afforded. US is broke but Obama sent officials to Mexico to get food stamps to Mexicans. Its out of control but people dont even understand the math as I said. Too many think there are piles of money floating in space magically.
Basically public TV is full of British shows and businesses love to hire people with British accents and thats about the extent of consciousness of UK. People don't know US history anymore never mind UK history.
Agree.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.
But I can't help remembering an idea suggested in one of Neville Shute Norway's books (he was a very successful UK author some 50 years ago) that of course everyone should have a vote but that those who contributed more to the State should have extra votes i.e. those who had contributed a high level of tax, those who had served the country in, say, the Police or the Armed Services, those who had enjoyed a high level of education, should all have extra votes according to what they had given. He was of course only flying a kite but, (over that same bottle of malt with Obama!) I would ask him just why an ignorant and uncaring recent citizen should enjoy just as effective a vote as, say, a graduate from a respected university who was contributing perhaps half a million dollars a year to the general economy, and had done so for perhaps 50 years.
And when he came back at me and said "all men are equal, including the blacks and Hispanos" I would say "is that really so, in terms of what each contributes to the State"? I find Neville Shute's suggestion intriguing, and to some extent persuasive, even though it is of course a non-starter.
Tony (not really political!)
Also agree! (I know, what a shocker, right?!)
Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.
I don't really like this whole 'if you get welfare you shouldn't have a vote' thing. Often these are highly skilled people who just can't get a job because there just aren't enough jobs to go round, and also what about those needing welfare for a disability? You want to punish them further by saying as a person in need of more care you don't deserve a vote? Lovely sentiment.
I think Obama hasn't done the best but he is facing a massive right wing opposition so to try and get any half decent policy through is ni on impossible.
'Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.'
['There is only one thing we say to death. Not today'.']
'We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell. Oscar Wilde
Its hard to dance with the devil on your back. Sydney Carter
