Do people with personality disorders have 'zero empathy'?
Does a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, or antisocial personality disorder mean someone has ‘zero empathy’? Are they naturally ‘capable of inflicting physical and psychological harm on others and are unmoved by the plight of those they hurt’? According to Simon Baron-Cohen it does, as outlined in this article in The Independent published last week. Baron-Cohen is professor of developmental psychopathology at the University of Cambridge who makes these claims in his book Zero Degrees of Empathy.
Looking at borderline personality disorder (BPD) as an example, it’s a controversial psychiatric diagnosis. Mind’s guide to BPD explains that some people find the suggestion that their personality is disordered, or ‘wrong’ distressing. Equally, having a diagnosis can help people find ways to manage their condition.
People with BPD can have symptoms that make life very difficult – poor self image, difficulty in building or maintaining relationships, feeling despair one day and confident another – which often has a significant impact on their day-to-day life. As a result, people with BPD are more likely than those with most other psychiatric diagnoses to have suicidal thoughts or make suicide attempts. They are far more likely to hurt themselves than anyone else.
However, borderline personality disorder is manageable and there are many things people with the diagnosis can do to help themselves cope better and manage their condition. The majority of people with BPD feel better in the long term. Being stigmatised as pathological and people with zero empathy, as Baron-Cohen suggests, is not helpful for people with BPD or their friends and family.
BPD can be distressing for the people around those who are diagnosed with it. Someone with BPD is likely to often feel very low about themselves, and may not know how to ask for help. People who experience BPD still want to be loved and cared for but may feel that they do not deserve this. Reminding them of good things about them can help. They have to find their own way to get a sense of self-worth, but support from friends and family does help.
People with BPD have a strong need to feel accepted – they are not unmoved by others but find it difficult to feel that others value them. The portrayal in the Independent is unlikely to help this. Mind’s information gives a more realistic explanation of the disorder and how people with it can find help.
Calling people with diagnoses of borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, or antisocial personality disorder ‘pathological’ is inaccurate and reinforces inappropriate generalisations that should be challenged. In particular, the implication that people with these diagnoses are often criminals is entirely inaccurate.
Mind’s report, Another Assault, demonstrated that people with mental health problems are more likely to be victims of crime than to commit them. 71 per cent of survey respondents with mental health problems had been a victim of crime in the last two years. They are 11 times more likely to be victimised than society as a whole.
BPD, ASPD and NPD are serious psychiatric conditions. Generalising that they mean people diagnosed with them have ‘zero empathy’ and are a danger to others is incorrect and could cause harm.
What do you think? Have you been diagnosed with a personality disorder? Have you experienced stigma and/or discrimination?
This is really sad to read. I am diagnosed with BPD and can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that I am deeply empathic. I will admit that sometimes I am very self-involved, and, when very distressed, can behave irresponsibly and without proper thought as to how it would affect the people who love me. But there again, I've also been dangerously close to suicide, and concern for the people around me who care has always kept me here. I am grateful for that.
There have been times when my parents have got angry with me for behaving in a way that's affected them negatively. I can understand that. But I strongly believe that everyone behaves that way from time-to-time - even if it's 'sideways'.
I don't tend to disclose my diagnosis to people unnecessarily. The ones who do know, think little of it. I am fortunate that they have always taken me for who I am. I am generally a kind and compassionate person who sometimes behaves negatively. I feel lucky that I have not had to deal with this kind of stigma - at least in recent years. I have found that therapy made me aware of when I was behaving 'badly', and helped me to notice and prevent it more in the future, which I think is a reason that I tend to have a good rapport with most people I'm in contact with these days.
I'll admit that I haven't read all of the article before writing this, but I will sometime soon. And if it turns out that the professor is making a stark sweeping statement, then I think I will be writing in with my opinion and experience.
I have BPD and I'd say I was quite empathetic, I certainly wouldn't put myself in the category below people who blunder through life saying things like "wow you're put on weight!"
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I have diagnosed with BPD and whilst I do have ongoing problems with relationships, low self-image and self-esteem and feeling a number of emotions all in one day, one thing I do pride myself on is my ability to empathise with others.
I wouldn't say I "blunder" through life - yes, in the past I have opened my big mouth and been harshly blunt but I am learning to control that. I've learnt to think about what I'm going to say before I say it, although sometimes it just comes spurting out anyway.
I have indirectly hurt others through my suicide attempts, self-harming, and attempts to ensure that they don't leave me - but I don't hurt people intentionally. I'm more likely to come down a lot harder on myself and hurt myself than other people.
Having read the original article, it's hardly as simple as saying "People with personality disorders have no empathy". That doesn't seem to be the theory presented, though it is mentioned.
On the risk of making no friends here, to a degree I think it's true. Being empathetic goes beyond showing the right reactions, if that makes sense. It's possible to pass for completely "normal" yet don't feel the emotions you project - I do that, somewhat. I often struggle to really understand people's emotions, but I do know what sort of behaviour is expected. But saying "Oh dear, that's a terrible disaster happening in xy-country" doesn't mean I feel too bothered by it.
Actually, I think Borderline is an awful example for this, since I do believe that it's pretty overdiagnosed, and thus the proclaimed sufferers may show a wide range of personalities?
Also, while I don't think it's justified to put people into categories so strictly, from what I've witnessed in people around me with certain personality disorders, I think the tendency towards low empathy is there.
Okay, to put BPD in there is a little but of erm, rubbish. I have the diagnosis, however we have actually been suggested to be empathically gifted and for me at least, that is often the case. I am in tune with my girlfriend to the degree I automatically pick up signs of not only her hallucinations, but where etc, ad have even comforted her in my sleep. Zero-empathy my ass.
As a comment to the title only; a lot of people with BPD 'over' empathise too. If a person with BPD had 'zero capacity for empathy' they have the wrong diagnosis in my opinion.
I think the lacking of empathy comes within other PD's however, such as anti-social and histrionic where narcissistic behaviour is part of self contentedness or anti-social behaviour.
When in 'traumatised mind' I am non empathic. Because then I am mostly in a much earlier developmental stage. Which, yes, is all 'me me' because of the developmental lacks at that stage in my development.
However when I am fully in possession of myself, I am capable of deep empathy. My therapist has said this, as have therapists when I was training.
I have to say that this dissonance causes me deep distress, as the split can be quite huge. I'm however really starting to see the impact that traumatised mind has on others now, as well as accepting and not judging this. You can't change until you accept, and that's not an overnight thing. Criticism and judgement never helps acceptance either.
NB I don't have a formal diagnosis of personality disorder.
I opened this thread thinking 'of course not!', but then the more I think about it... I think it makes sense. I don't think they was it was worded in that article is correct, as that applies more socio/psychopaths.
I do think to a degree, I lack empathy. I show empathy, but I don't think I necessarily feel empathetic.
I don't know much about these PDs, but the ideas seem to be mostly bull****. Most of the major atrocities seem to be carried out by dehuminzing the enemy and people who have been convinced they are doing the right thing.
And empathy isn't a single variable. Being able to understand another persons emotions and be distressed by anothers pain are different variables, which is why he ends up with the problem of thoughtful people without empathy. So yeah, bull****.
There's a theory ['mentalisation'] about people with certain flavours of Borderline [where it's most strongly an attachment disorder] that they cannot understand that other minds exist, that others can think differently from them. That this is due to a developmental fault/lack in early childhood.
I wouldn't say that this is lack of empathy = heartless, it's more a being unable to conceive of others thinking or feeling any different to them and genuinely not having the capacity to understand and use that understanding in relationship.
I know that when I fall into 'traumatised mind' I have elements of this. And as I start to heal from it, to understand that I and others are separate beings, each with our own feelings, needs, hopes and dreams etc, it can be both very painful and liberating.
So you see, it's not as simple or as crude as 'personality disorder = no empathy = bad person = lock them away and isolate them from society'.
The layers of reality are more compassionate than that, and healing is possible.
Plus, isolating ourselves never solved anything, because how are we supposed to have experiences of relationship that help us learn and grow, else? It can take some time to heal, true. I know that for me, psychotherapy is an essential part of this process for me. I understand and experience relationship with my therapist, and practice what I learn with those I interact with at work and home. In time the goodness and realness I'm nurturing will expand out to more of my role and any interactions in society. Like when a child gradually grows up and also has a meaningful life outside school and family.
I've been accused by someone who'd never met me in real life as being heartless and incapable of empathy. Which is so not a reflection on me, as my therapist, my colleagues, my flatmates even have all commented on my good heart. It happens to be a heart that's been wounded, however, hence a need for healing.
Heh, this isn't really a post for N&D, but I feel passionately about this!
ok i couldnt be bothered to write this last night but I know I empathise, I'm rubbish at faking things with people. I don't care that someone has had a baby, I can't do the aww thing BUT if i had no empathy I wouldn't feel so distraut when my friends baby died, I wouldn't feel so heart broken for her that i cried and wanted nothing more than to hold her and make things better. I wouldn't feel so sorry for my boyfriend when hes ill.
I feel plenty of empathy, not over everything but for the people I feel are important to me.
I think everyone will hurt someone, at some point in their life, disorders or not. It's just not possible to please all of the people all of the time so everyone is bound to end up hurting others eventually. I've hurt people before (unintentionally) and got so upset afterwards because I know I've hurt them and knowing they are hurt, hurts me.
I know my having BPD can hurt others, but I feel it's the same as someone being recently breaking their leg can hurt others, the pain, being in a cast and having limited mobility might make them irritable and impatient. But it's understandable because they are in pain and most people would understand that I feel.
I do try and be aware of other's feelings, and be mindful or them, I try and handle things tactfully and delicately if the situation calls for it.
I think this topic is too diverse to label everyone with BPD for example as not having any empathy. I don't think it's as simple as that. But that's just my thoughts/ramblings
I have diagnosed BPD, and I think (and according to others too) that I do have empathy.
And as for the discrimination/stigma bit, well, I don't exactly go around with a sign saying "BPD person here", plus, I'm pretty good at doing happyface. So not really. Sometimes there's a bit of caution on the part of those who have noticed my scars, but other than that, no.
I don't see why having a low capacity for empathy is necessarily a bad thing. People with highly scientific minds tend to get very low scores when it comes to empathy, in some respects their ability not to get caught up in the tribulations, emotions, and interactions of other people means that they are better suited to an academic research driven path in life. It leads to them being incredibly productive due to their intense focus. Likewise not getting caught up in how other people feel also allows people to excel in the world of business where at times you have to step on other people in order to get ahead.
I feel that whilst having a low capacity for empathy can at times be bad, for instance it may cause problems when it comes to social interaction. Having a high capacity for empathy can be just as equally damaging, as you feel the need to over burden yourself with other peoples problems and thus run risk of getting stuck in a quagmire and never getting anywhere because you're too focussed on other people and not focussed enough on yourself.
I am diagnosed as having BPD and when I took the empathy quotient questionnaire I scored well below average at just 7 out of 80. I think BPD can be a disorder of extremes, you have some like those people who have posted above who are extremely receptive towards other people, whereas you also have people like me who find social interaction and dealing with other peoples emotions rather bothersome and awkward.
Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money.
They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with.
Some men just want to watch the world burn.
I am diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.
I think this is a tricky issue. When I was very unwell, I could not see how my behaviour was affecting my family. I was suicidal and self harming and causing them great distress, but it was as if anything that wasn't immediately inside my head didn't exist.
However, that doesnt mean I didn't care for them, or intentionally wanted to harm them. I was just very ill and probably had a lack of insight which is true for many acutely mentally ill people.
And during times when I was not in crisis, I definately can say I have empathy. Okay, if someone bursts into tears in front of me I can feel a bit awkward but it depends how long I've known them, and how comfortable I am with them and so on.
I frequently get told that I am a good listener and good at talking to people and so on, which is good as it is my aim to become a psychologist.
Isn’t it funny how day by day nothing changes but when you look back, everything is different…
you once called your brain a hard drive, well say hello to the virus.
But... would you blame someone for any other illness for causing upset/distress in the family? Because let's face it, whatever illness a family member or friend has, it can be & will be upsetting. But you wouldn't blame them. They didn't ask for that illness. They didn't sit down one day & think "I know, getting diabetes/cancer/becoming physically disabled would be fun &&&& it would really upset other people!"
