Criminal records and a job in research

[Steel Maiden]

I know this is a bit early (I'm only just starting my degree in pharmacology properly next week and I'm already struggling), but I was wondering how criminal records can impact a future research post

I have a section 136 and another entry in my criminal records which I don't want to go into too much, but it involves death threats and violence in public, and it's pretty descriptive (this happened when I was in the middle of a psychotic episode)

How will this affect me? How do I go about clearing my records? I think I might have posted about this before but I can't find the old post

[Rhuben]

I found this via google I'm not sure how helpful it is but it does talk about section 136 and crb checks... http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...7113724AA62VFN

I imagine Mind and Rethink would be good people to contact as well as it is probably something they are asked fairly frequently.

[Soviette]

Section 136 isn't a Criminal Record at all.. where's the crime/offence? It's just a welfare issue where the Police will take a 'mentally disordered' person to a Place of Safety to await a mental health assessment. It should under no circumstances appear in your CRB, unless you are talking about your enhanced CRB, but even then it's not a Criminal Record.. it's just police data on you, they're known to cough up loads of old and sometimes unfair rubbish on a person via an enhanced CRB check like parking tickets and arrests where you never got charged. However, from what I've heard from my email back from MIND as well as several people, they only release the information if there was violence involved in the 136 and where you potentially put other people at risk. If you were simply 136'd for something like self-harming or attempting suicide, it should generally not turn up, as MIND told me the Police have to follow a strict protocol when releasing information like this onto your enhanced check.

I can't comment on your other entry, but don't worry about your Section 136.. it's not a crime. But I think the best way to probably approach this issue is probably just to disclose it to your potential employers before they send for the check. Just be honest I suppose. But I can see why you're worried, I was researching this topic constantly as I was on a 136 less than two months ago myself and I'm a bit worried about the fact that it took three police officers and being handcuffed behind my back to restrain me might be classed as 'violence' seeing as they have to justify their use of handcuffs on paper for every detention/arrest they make. :S I was only trying to get up and go away, but heh.

I have no idea how you go about clearing your records.. I was under the impression they stayed there until your 100th birthday, but I could be wrong. Is there an appeal process anywhere? Could you perhaps go to court with it with the help of MIND? Good luck. xxx

[FragileWings]

One of my friend who likes to ask lots of questions. Has said that section 136 stays on your records for 12 years, section 3 stays on for life, and section 2 stays on for 6 years. Don't know for sure, she did ask a mental health nurse.

[Soviette]

If that's true.. why is a Section 136 on your records longer than a Section 2? A 136 is a 72 hour detention and a 2 is a 28 day section.. that doesn't make sense to me.

Mind you, my CPN and another mental health nurse told me that none of it stays on your records except for Section 3's, so of course they're all contradicting eachother. I wouldn't really listen to what they say..

[FragileWings]

Probably because you interact with the police.

I know its a lot of bollocks to some degree! You want us to get better? Give us something normal to do, like a job! lol

[Steel Maiden]

Thank you all for your input, this has helped a lot

I've been on two section 2s and one section 136. However I was very violent during my section 136 (I kicked a police officer in the face while wearing steel-capped army boots and I attacked another one; it took 4 or 5 policemen to restrain me because I was so full of adrenaline)

I think I will talk to my psychiatrist about this when I next see her

The one I'm most worried about is the other "conviction" about death threats and violence. Last time I had an enhanced CRB it came up in great detail and I didn't want the employer to see it so I stopped all contact with the company and never got the job

[Soviette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel Maiden

Thank you all for your input, this has helped a lot

I've been on two section 2s and one section 136. However I was very violent during my section 136 (I kicked a police officer in the face while wearing steel-capped army boots and I attacked another one; it took 4 or 5 policemen to restrain me because I was so full of adrenaline)

Oh man, that doesn't sound good then. :/ That doesn't go in your favour. However, as it was a 136 you were obviously really unwell at the time and I take it if you're in your 'normal' mental state and stabilised you're not violent? That can be explained to your future employers. It's better if you explain what happened rather than say nothing and wait for an impersonal police report to come back saying how you were this "violent nutter". I'm sorry about your ordeal, though, must've been really distressing. Being restrained and manhandled isn't fun, heh, I had to have one policeman kneel on my back and keep me in an shoulder-lock so I could be cuffed on that hand, another policeman pin my legs down to stop me trying to kick out and a policewoman to bend my other arm back to allow it to be handcuffed. When I think of it, it sounds pretty bad, and I have no clue whether it counts as 'violence' or not so I have the same worries as you, more or less.

Quote:

I think I will talk to my psychiatrist about this when I next see her

The one I'm most worried about is the other "conviction" about death threats and violence. Last time I had an enhanced CRB it came up in great detail and I didn't want the employer to see it so I stopped all contact with the company and never got the job

:/ I can't really comment on that one, it doesn't sound good. Do you know if any of this gets 'spent' or not? Like disappears after a certain time, etc. or have you considered going into a field that doesn't ask for an enhanced CRB check-up? Because in that case your sections and tiffs with the police will never show up, but then again, this isn't the answer you're looking for as you want to go into Pharmacology.

Wish there was something I could suggest that could help. I don't have a clue about the law, so I don't know what you can do to appeal or conflict your records.

[Steel Maiden]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stanpy

Oh man, that doesn't sound good then. :/ That doesn't go in your favour. However, as it was a 136 you were obviously really unwell at the time and I take it if you're in your 'normal' mental state and stabilised you're not violent? That can be explained to your future employers. It's better if you explain what happened rather than say nothing and wait for an impersonal police report to come back saying how you were this "violent nutter". I'm sorry about your ordeal, though, must've been really distressing. Being restrained and manhandled isn't fun, heh, I had to have one policeman kneel on my back and keep me in an armlock so I could be cuffed, another policeman pin my legs down and a policewoman to bend my other arm back to allow it to be handcuffed. When I think of it, it sounds pretty bad, and I have no clue whether it counts as 'violence' or not so I have the same worries as you, more or less.


:/ I can't really comment on that one, it doesn't sound good. Do you know if any of this gets 'spent' or not? Like disappears after a certain time, etc. or have you considered going into a field that doesn't ask for an enhanced CRB check-up? Because in that case your sections and tiffs with the police will never show up, but then again, this isn't the answer you're looking for as you want to go into Pharmacology.

Wish there was something I could suggest that could help. I don't have a clue about the law, so I don't know what you can do to appeal or conflict your records.

I'm not normally a violent person, it's just that when I get very ill, I get very paranoid and start thinking that everyone around me is trying to kill me, so I attack everyone. I am thinking of getting another assessment by a forensic pychiatrist to prove that I am not a danger any more. That might look better

Hugs, that sounds awful what you had to go through. The police can be so rough but I guess there was nothing else they could do. They strapped my legs together as well as handcuffing me and they put me in the back of the police van and took me to a secure unit. Do you get flashbacks from it? It can be very distressing

I'll talk to my psychiatrist about this. Luckily I have three years before I even consider a job, so that should be alright

I hope that things get better for you. I'm here if you need to talk

[sherlock holmes]

A section three does not show up on an enhanced CRB check. I'm sure a section two does not either. I've been on a section three, and my enhanced CRB check is sitting next to me and it is clear. I have also been told from other sources that a section three does not show up.

A section 136 will show up on an enhanced CRB if the police force deemed it necessary at the time.

[makedamnsure]

I think babe that your best bet is wait and see.

Hopefully at the end of your degree you will be relatively stable and even if it does show up you will be able to explain to yoru employer exactly what you explained here. You were very ill and paranoid and acted in ways that you couldn't control. I would be open with employers and assure them that you will ask for support/time off if you begin to struggle so that a situation like that would not happen at work.

[LaurieR]

I made some threats when I was on a Section 3 and I also have one Section 136 on my record, but nothing has seemed to hinder my academic progress so far. You mentioned a job in research, I assume that you would like to go into psychiatric/ psychopharmacological research like myself?

If that is the case, I don't think you should worry too much at all! Being an academic psychiatrist is different from a clinical psychiatrist (sorry I am sure you already know this), as you don't have to deal with patients as much so I don't even think that a CRB check is required! What's more, if you do animal research (in vivo work) or pre-clinical psychopharmacology, there is virtually nothing that can stop you...!

In fact, during my last meeting with my potential PhD supervisors (I am going into clinical research), I disclosed everything and one of them said it could even become an advantage as I have a deeper understanding of mental illness than most other researchers. So I suppose everything can be viewed from different angles...you never know when your experiences will HELP you get a job in research!!

Hope this helps,


Laurie

[Soviette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel Maiden

I'm not normally a violent person, it's just that when I get very ill, I get very paranoid and start thinking that everyone around me is trying to kill me, so I attack everyone. I am thinking of getting another assessment by a forensic pychiatrist to prove that I am not a danger any more. That might look better

Yeah, and if she/he proves you're stable and not a danger to anybody anymore, I believe the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 may protect you against discrimination.. as mental health discrimination is unlawful if it's unjustified.. if you were proven stable, then it would be unjustified. Of course that's a potshot guess at how things work, you may want to get in touch with a solicitor if this becomes a problem in the future. :)

Quote:

Hugs, that sounds awful what you had to go through. The police can be so rough but I guess there was nothing else they could do. They strapped my legs together as well as handcuffing me and they put me in the back of the police van and took me to a secure unit. Do you get flashbacks from it? It can be very distressing

I'm very sorry you went through a rough restraint, it is frightening to lose control of yourself enough without having x number of cops having you on the floor, forcing you in handcuffs, etc. But additional restraints (leg straps) sounds even worse. My tiff didn't get that far, though, but it easily could've as I was yelling and struggling as much as I could. Unfortunately, I now have nerve damage in my left hand from the handcuffs which bloody hurt, and I can't feel my hand that well and it goes really sore when it gets cold. I have to wait a few months for it to heal apparently. As for flashbacks, fortunately I don't, but I do have constant dreams and thoughts about what happened, as well as shiver at the sight of coppers wearing those black tshirts/reflective vests and police vans. Sorry for going off on a bit of a tangent there, this isn't supposed to be about me heh, but what about you? That much restraint is bound to be traumatising.

Quote:

I'll talk to my psychiatrist about this. Luckily I have three years before I even consider a job, so that should be alright

I hope that things get better for you. I'm here if you need to talk

Yeah, take your time. :) Try getting medically cleared as much as possible and the law on your side can only make things better. But in the case of worst comes to the worst, have you considered any field of work/careers that don't require an enhanced CRB check-up? You seem interested in the sciences (just judging by your avatar and this thread hehe) and the vast majority of scientific careers don't involve vulnerable people/children, so I doubt they'll ask for an enhanced disclosure. And thanks. :) xx

Quote:

Originally Posted by control freak

A section three does not show up on an enhanced CRB check. I'm sure a section two does not either. I've been on a section three, and my enhanced CRB check is sitting next to me and it is clear. I have also been told from other sources that a section three does not show up.

A section 136 will show up on an enhanced CRB if the police force deemed it necessary at the time.

Why do people say this... I have a mate that's been on an emergency section and a hospital section (forget which ones, but they definitely weren't 136/135) and they turned up in his enhanced disclosure when he was applying for a placement with primary school kids to assist teaching PE (or some crap like that). He was sectioned for suicide attempts, as well.

I think 136/135 is more likely to show up because of Police involvement, but other sections do definitely have the potential to show in an enhanced CRB. That doesn't mean they do, but I'm actually pretty sure I read something on the CRB website about MHA Hospital Orders and how long they stay on your records too.

[Steel Maiden]

Thanks guys for your input. I will be honest but the other thing on my CRB (not the section 136) is rather bad (I don't want to go into detail, I'm too ashamed) and I was nearly expelled from school for it, as I was a severe risk to everyone around me. Thank you Laurie for that post, I have been honest so far about my MH problems and being on the autism spectrum and they've really supported me so far. Stanpy, thank you, I will talk to my psych first and if I need a solicitor my Dad's very good at organising things like that. I completely know what you mean about feeling horrible around policemen. I would never be able to ask a policeman for directions after that. Every time I go to Tooting I think that Tooting police will be there and recognise me. That's awful that the handcuffs gave you nerve damage. My wrists swelled to twice their size after being handcuffed. On another occasion I was in handcuffs for twelve hours (3pm to 3am). Luckily I'm doing well now according to my psych, so I won't be having altercations with the police again I hope

Thank you all again, you've been a great help

Hugs to all. Police can be right bastards sometimes (although I've had some really helpful ones too)

[Rhuben]

There's the saying about police officers... ACAB. I've often seen that graffiti on the side of the local police station :P

It's awful reading some of the stories about how police officers are treating vulnerable people, knee's in back, over tightened cuffs. I don't think they get enough training in dealing with people who have mental health issues. Seems to be a case bang them up, worry about the fall out later.

I agree though Oly some are really helpful and understanding, when I got broken into the officer who attended heard about someone acting suspicious in nearby alley way, dashed out the house and chased them, turned out it was the person who had broken into my house and he had my laptop in his hands so I got it back pretty much straight away! I was really thankful that time.

It's a shame how it is so hit and miss :(

[FragileWings]

Quote:

Originally Posted by control freak

A section three does not show up on an enhanced CRB check. I'm sure a section two does not either. I've been on a section three, and my enhanced CRB check is sitting next to me and it is clear. I have also been told from other sources that a section three does not show up.

A section 136 will show up on an enhanced CRB if the police force deemed it necessary at the time.

It's dependant on situation, job, individual, and the chief that writes it. Either sections can appear on an enhanced. I've seen a few friends, and they both appear.

[The Hierophant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel Maiden

Thank you all for your input, this has helped a lot

I've been on two section 2s and one section 136. However I was very violent during my section 136 (I kicked a police officer in the face while wearing steel-capped army boots and I attacked another one; it took 4 or 5 policemen to restrain me because I was so full of adrenaline)

I think I will talk to my psychiatrist about this when I next see her

The one I'm most worried about is the other "conviction" about death threats and violence. Last time I had an enhanced CRB it came up in great detail and I didn't want the employer to see it so I stopped all contact with the company and never got the job

your 136 sounds like mine, & mine doesn't show up, there was a lot of police force with mine too, i've not sure about the other one, but if it's shown up before it might show up again.

[MrsCoulter]

An assessment to prove you are not a violent person might be a good idea. it shows that you really want to prove you are up to doing the job/post. I'm pretty sure a professional could say that you were only violent because you were psychotic.

Sorry if that didn't sound quite right - it sounded okay in my head :S

[Soviette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel Maiden

Thanks guys for your input. I will be honest but the other thing on my CRB (not the section 136) is rather bad (I don't want to go into detail, I'm too ashamed) and I was nearly expelled from school for it, as I was a severe risk to everyone around me. Thank you Laurie for that post, I have been honest so far about my MH problems and being on the autism spectrum and they've really supported me so far. Stanpy, thank you, I will talk to my psych first and if I need a solicitor my Dad's very good at organising things like that. I completely know what you mean about feeling horrible around policemen. I would never be able to ask a policeman for directions after that. Every time I go to Tooting I think that Tooting police will be there and recognise me. That's awful that the handcuffs gave you nerve damage. My wrists swelled to twice their size after being handcuffed. On another occasion I was in handcuffs for twelve hours (3pm to 3am). Luckily I'm doing well now according to my psych, so I won't be having altercations with the police again I hope

Thank you all again, you've been a great help

Hugs to all. Police can be right bastards sometimes (although I've had some really helpful ones too)

Well as for your other thing, I don't know what it is, but again do you think there's a way you can prove you were mentally unstable at the time? Like the opinion of a psychiatrist or psychologist, etc? because I'm sure you're not like that or the type to make death threats when you'e okay. And being in handcuffs for 12 hours sounds like very, very inhumanetreatment. Not even prisoners get treated like that to my knowledge, again, I'm sorry. I was threatened with limb restraints when I was on sui watch in the police cell for picking at an old cut. Heh. I guess if you're in that "nutter" catagory, people are more afraid of you, so they're more likely to want as much restraint on you as possible.

Good luck with the future, I hope you have no more negative contact with the Police. :) And if you do, I suppose just let them help you and do what they say.. (if you can). I guess resisting them causes more harm than good, not that we can help it if we're deeply distressed, shocked, scared, whatever.

Quote:

There's the saying about police officers... ACAB. I've often seen that graffiti on the side of the local police station :P

It's awful reading some of the stories about how police officers are treating vulnerable people, knee's in back, over tightened cuffs. I don't think they get enough training in dealing with people who have mental health issues. Seems to be a case bang them up, worry about the fall out later.

I agree though Oly some are really helpful and understanding, when I got broken into the officer who attended heard about someone acting suspicious in nearby alley way, dashed out the house and chased them, turned out it was the person who had broken into my house and he had my laptop in his hands so I got it back pretty much straight away! I was really thankful that time.

It's a shame how it is so hit and miss :(

Like all walks of life, the Police is definitely a profession which has it's good apples and bad apples. You get some ignorant bullies who obviously join for the power, and they fully deserve the slang name 'PIG' and then other cops who genuinely join to serve their communities and help people. In regards to tough restraint, well admittedly, the Police deal with violent loudmouth criminals every day who sometimes try to run away, assault them, spit on them, etc. so I guess it's kind of the case where they've become thickskinned and 'used' to using force to arrest or detain people, and it doesn't help that some Police are clearly untrained or ignorant about mental health. It also doesn't help that there are many high profile murderers/serial killers (like the Yorkshire Ripper and Ted Bundy) and rapists which suffer from mental illness, so sometimes when confronted by one of "us" they may believe we have to potential to turn on them, especially the ones who can't differentiate between suicidal and homicidal. I was treated very kindly by most of the Police that detained me that day, they were very sympathetic, but I was also treated with a great level of.. caution too.

I think that if they're still going to involve the Police in mental health to the extent they do now (esp. with keeping 136's in police cells), then they should receive more training and education on mental health. It's no good having a good percentage of them have the attitude that we're either all "nutjobs" or "attention seekers"

[Steel Maiden]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuben

There's the saying about police officers... ACAB. I've often seen that graffiti on the side of the local police station :P

It's awful reading some of the stories about how police officers are treating vulnerable people, knee's in back, over tightened cuffs. I don't think they get enough training in dealing with people who have mental health issues. Seems to be a case bang them up, worry about the fall out later.

I agree though Oly some are really helpful and understanding, when I got broken into the officer who attended heard about someone acting suspicious in nearby alley way, dashed out the house and chased them, turned out it was the person who had broken into my house and he had my laptop in his hands so I got it back pretty much straight away! I was really thankful that time.

It's a shame how it is so hit and miss :(

I agree that police should get more training. Plus I'm on the autism spectrum so physical contact and shouting make me worse; I was shouting and screaming at them because of the sensory overload, and they thought I was being violent when I kept trying to push them away due to them invading my personal space. I am glad that the police officer was so helpful when you got broken into though