Before anyone starts trying to cause trouble, that is not the purpose of this thread. However, there have been quite a few F&CQ and Debate threads needing to be edited/removed recently.
What words/phrases/intonation do members find aggravate or upset them? At what point does an opinion or response, do you believe, becomes too personal and not legitimate debate?
As my previous post, this is intended to help make the community a little more approachable and generally more acceptable so please be civil.
"Everything is possible through Christ, who gives me strength". Phillipians 4:13
I used to post in the debate forums A LOT, and i used to have my posts edited tonnes.
I guess my problem was thst when a thread was moving quickly... i would type what i wanted and not think about how it came across.. which, alot of the time was stupidly sarcastic. I didnt take the time to read over what i was writing, and consider how it came across.
I think debates work best we people keep it about the subject.. and not about the people that have those opinions.. like, its better to say
'i think x about x' rather than 'Youre wrong about x'
does that make sense? sort of.. debate the subject without making it personal.
ALSOOO... and i now its probably just because people want to be thorough.. but it bugs me when people quote other peoples posts and pick it apart and comment on it sentence by sentence.
for me.. a debate becaomes void when i goes round and round in circles, and people have no capacity to even take on board what others are saying, and just try and get there opinion across as loudly and aggressively as they can.
From a moderating point of view.. the debate threads are really hard to moderate.. so much of the content borders so closely on the line between debate and presonal attack. and where as.. one moderator would think that x post was perfectly valid, another might think it was too personal to stay. but.. its hard fo those threads not to get personal sometimes, especially as theyre often about things that people hae such stron opinions on.
I hope this has vaguely answered the question.. i feel like ive just rambled.
Good start Charlie. A constructive response, hopefully we will get more and also help make members more aware as to how their posts/wordings should be considered a little more.
I have certainly noticed the quick, sarcastic replies. They can end up with people being really insulted due to a lack of forethought.
Circles are annoying but sometimes things are considered circles but result in a little difference or nuance.
I'm not going to go re the mods view b/c I have really strong views re this recently which don't marry up with those of mods.
"Everything is possible through Christ, who gives me strength". Phillipians 4:13
I firstly just wanted to agree with Charlie in the thinking through the way you word things. As somebody mentioned in a thread recently, the wording can not only make it seem less aggressive and hostile, but can also mean that your point comes across considerably more clearer and concise; something which I'm really trying to work on, but is difficult!
Thing is, with a website like this, there are going to be circular arguments - we aren't going to agree on the same thing, by any means - and I think that at times, mods do need to step in and to say that it isn't going anywhere. The problem is that people - this isn't a personal attack on anyone, I promise, it's a very generalised thing :P - get too involved in the debate, and so it's not easy to let it go. Which is why it is nice sometimes for an outsider to step in and say that the mod team are having concerns and so it's being closed for the time being.
I suppose it's just keeping emotion out of debates - which is certainly easier said than done.
I don't know. As for the mods - I know that when I'm involved in a debate that is edited in some way by the mods, I really appreciate knowing that they work in a team, and as such aren't just basing the action on their own opinion. It's very rare for a mod to act alone, unless it is a very cut-and-dry case - either way, it isn't a single person making the decision.
ALSOOO... and i now its probably just because people want to be thorough.. but it bugs me when people quote other peoples posts and pick it apart and comment on it sentence by sentence.
Ohmygod. This is a massive pet peeve for me on here, thankfully i haven't seen it much recently. I can understand someone quoting/splitting it when replying, but they should delete the quotes before posting because it just comes across as intimidating and makes the poster seem as if they think they're "superior" to everyone else.
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Ok so on from that. I have a problem with people actually repeating what others say, and i'm not meaning "quoting", i mean generally typing out exactly what someone else has said but adding nothing to it.
For me, if someone has said something i agree with, rather than writing it out myself (which would be pointless if i had nothing else to add) i would just quote and say "I agree with this". Done.
But i'm finding recently that more and more people, despite all having the same view/opinion and saying the same thing, are typing out what there opinion is, and targetting it towards the one or two individuals that actually don't have the same opinion as them. On a support site with people who have mental health issues, this can be very detrimental to someones state of mind - especially if the people they're "targetting" have pasts of bullying - because they're going to feel singled out and targetted it.
I see nothing wrong with one or two people saying "This is my opinion" and asking questions to someone else who has the opposite opinion to them, but when it gets above that line and more and more people join in, it's this one individual that is going to feel targetted and incredibly cornered - which i feel is when it gets personal, because the person feeling cornered is going to go into "defense mode" and start replying in a more personal manner because they're feeling attacked.
I'm not just speaking from my own personal experiences, i have seen this happen to a few other members during discussions/debates, and my heart has gone out to them because it's very upsetting to see someone feel cornered/targetted.
I don't feel it's necessary for 3-4-5-6 people to say the same thing to one person in a discussion. It's different if you have an even amount on both sides, but when it's just one possibly 2 individuals having to "fight" against so many people it's bound to turn personal, it's unavoidable.
I love having a debate/discussion with one or two people, because i'm known for always having the opposite opinion (think i'm missing a gene) but when you have so many people on you ALL saying the same thing with nothing to add, you do genuinly feel very intimidated.
I feel aswell that double standards can become a problem in discussions/debates. People know i've been in trouble a lot on RYL, therefor i am going to be kept a close eye on by the moderators - this is unavoidable and understandable. However, as soon as i step out of line i know my posts will be edited within minutes, but i find other members who step out of line, despite post reporting, it's left until a decision is made amongst the mods - despite obvious flaming/attacking comments in the members post. I feel these posts should be edited just as quickly because it can be very upsetting to the people it's aimed towards for it to sit there for days, it makes you feel humiliated. I'm just generally speaking here - nothing specific is springing to mind but it's just these ongoing problems i find need to be possibly looked into.
I know i'll get pounced upon for what i've said but nothing is meant in an offensive way or meant towards anyone inparticular, it's just observations i've made over recent months.
I guess that with most debates, they will reach a stalemate, and go round in circles, its just that from an outsiders point of view, it gets to be like watching people banging their heads against a brick wall.
Maybe debates should only be allowed to go on for a certain amount of time. With verbal debates, you get a certain amount of time to put your point across.. maybe if debates have like.. a life span,that would help some of the nit picking and frustration.
I dont know. its very difficult, especially as like you said Jo, a lot of members are so involved in the kind of debates that happen here.
I feel aswell that double standards can become a problem in discussions/debates. People know i've been in trouble a lot on RYL, therefor i am going to be kept a close eye on by the moderators - this is unavoidable and understandable. However, as soon as i step out of line i know my posts will be edited within minutes, but i find other members who step out of line, despite post reporting, it's left until a decision is made amongst the mods - despite obvious flaming/attacking comments in the members post. I feel these posts should be edited just as quickly because it can be very upsetting to the people it's aimed towards for it to sit there for days, it makes you feel humiliated. I'm just generally speaking here - nothing specific is springing to mind but it's just these ongoing problems i find need to be possibly looked into.
I know i'll get pounced upon for what i've said but nothing is meant in an offensive way or meant towards anyone inparticular, it's just observations i've made over recent months.
I hope you dont mind me saying this here Laura.. im guessing that as youve chosen to montion it in public, you dont.
but.. in debates, unless it is very blatant flaming, nothing is generally removed until it is reported, we feel that if you wish to debate something strongly, you are able to handle an opposing view.
even when things are reported, often they dont get edited for a while (depending on how many of the moderators are on line) because we all often have different views ourselves as to whether or not debate content is acceptable.
We do try very very hard not to impose any double standards, and i can assure you that we arent watching you more than other members.. i think that any posts of yours that will have been edited, will have been definate rule breaking, where as perhaps the posts that you feel that should have been edited, but havent are verging on the edge of what is acceptable, and so we are sitting debating it behind the scenes, the grey area is always so tricky and annoying.
A lot of stuff is edited here.. often before a lot of people get the chance to see it.
We dont discriminate against people.. how can we.. some of us (myself included) have old warning and points on our profiles).
Sorry Carrie for detracting from your thread for a second. Laura.. or anyone that feels the moderators need to chage things, please please feel free to pm me.
I think that in regard to people 'ganging up' - it's unavoidable on a site like this. It isn't intentional, and should never be taken as intentional. This is a site with 6000+ members, and it's inevitable that there will be people with the same opinion - and the N&D forum isn't set up in a proper debate stylee, with a certain number of members on each side, each allowed their x minutes of talk.
I know that sometimes, I just want to express my thoughts on the matter; they aren't necessarily exactly the same as anybody elses, but they are similar enough to feel that they are the same. They aren't, though, they are me formulating my thoughts as I think of them, it's me trying to work out in my head what I'm trying to say.
I think it is somewhat inevitable that people are going to feel ganged up against - people, especially on a site like this, are extra-defensive - but I think that is one of the risks in partaking in a discussion of that sort. There will be people who disagree, and if you take it to be a personal thing (when 99.9% of the time it won't be, and if it is, I've always seen the mods act extra-promptly - if it's a grey area, as Charlie said, it tends to remain and be debated - but also a lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes, so just because we can't see it or don't know about it, doesn't mean that something hasn't been done), it can disadvantage you an awful lot.
With any debate, it's important to keep distance and to remember that responses to your argument are not attacks at you, but simply that - responses to your argument.
And - this isn't intended to be directed at anybody here, I'm sorry if it comes across that way - I think that forming 'sides' tends to be somewhat counter-productive. You can have differences of opinion without having to take sides, and by taking sides it tends to cause more rifts than a group of people discussing their opinions and thoughts on the matter in hand. You can have differences of opinion and debates regarding topics without having to form groups.
It's a tricky one! And can you tell that I'm up late and waiting for my boyfriend to ring, so am spamming RYL? :P
Last edited by Dreaming. : 18-07-2009 at 02:06 AM.
There are cases of ongoing "gang like" behaviour though that shouldn't be happening. It's different if it's a one off occasion, but when it's ongoing in most discussions / debates it can become very upsetting to the member who is being targetted. Words are words, it doesn't matter how something is worded, if you agree with someone you agree with someone, i don't really find it necessary to repeat what someone else has said but put it into your own words, because the more people do that, the more the other side (so to speak) are going to feel cornered and its the bullying mentality that will always spring to mind when this situation takes place.
It doesn't matter whether there is six thousand members or six million members, that sort of behaviour is what destroys threads, because its no doubt going to end up getting personal and the discussion gets heated and eventually the thread gets closed.
It doesn't matter if people think "Oh it isn't really aimed at me, it's just in response to what i've said" - people, especially people with MH issues, aren't going to see it like that, and people need to remember to take a step back and see it from an outside view and see how that person they're targetting/asking questions to are feeling at that moment and how it's going to look to an outsider.
And Charlie, on that specific front, it was rule breaking, blatant rule breaking, and it should have been edited straight away, but it wasn't, and it was left in full view of other people to see and it's very humiliating and you feel very belittled by it. I understand sometimes things need to be discussed but even so, sometimes things do actually break the rules but it takes days to edit despite lots of mods being on at the time.
The only people who can control the gang like behaviour are the members themselves - and i don't see that ever changing. I know that's not the answer you wanted, but unless members actually just see that what they believe in has already been said, and just agree with that, rather than targetting the same bunch of questions at the same person, things will never change. And it's a shame, because i know it puts more and more people off debating and having discussions.
I think the problem is that, as you've said, moderators have different views on things, so it could take days to decide whether the gang like behaviour going on in a specific debate/discussion should be stopped - and by that time it may have already spiralled out of control.
To be honest though at the moment it is the same instigators that are showing gang like behaviours, and i think if the mods were to keep an eye on the main instigators and just maybe confront them if it continues that might be a way of keeping it more under control.
If its 'spiraled out of control' the thread is locked/deleted.
There are times to stay put, and what you want will come to you.
But there are times to go out into the world and find such a thing for yourself.
I aint no abacus but you can count on me.
i understand what youre saying. Maybe/hopefully those that regularly take part in the debate threads will read this objectively and take on board the suggestions. (i really hope no one thinks this is aimed at them, because im really not aiming my thoughts at anyone)
Im sure too that in the morning when there are more people about, there wll be more suggestions and comments added that will help the debates run smoother.
I personally love the debate threads, an it is a shame to have to close/edit them, but.. i suppose people are passionate about what they believe in.
No laura, what i meant was that if the thread is 'spiralling out of control' its not just left.
I like debate threads, but it sets me off when people take things SO personally and you end up not being able to say anything because people are so paranoid that youre attacking them. Even when youre just making a general comment! I also think theres too many veiled comments where the underlying statement is 'your arguement/view is crap' I think you can debate without belittling someones opinion.
The emotional/paranoia level on this site is so high that its basically impossible to have a debate without someone flying off at the deep end about it. I think we recieve a complaint about most debate threads, but a lot of the time the person who posted something isnt meaning to make it personal and the person who reports it will take it personally.
I think its important for people to realise that just because some questions your opinion/view that theyre not always attacking you and there isnt always an alterior motive. I also think there are quite a lot of replies on debate threads that are taken as 'aggressive' rather than simply being heated about the topic in hand.
People need to remember that passion is very very high in that particular forum. I also think some people would do well to back away from threads like that for 5 mins to clear their heads, because coming back to things with a fresh eye is always good.
There are times to stay put, and what you want will come to you.
But there are times to go out into the world and find such a thing for yourself.
I aint no abacus but you can count on me.
No laura, what i meant was that if the thread is 'spiralling out of control' its not just left.
I like debate threads, but it sets me off when people take things SO personally and you end up not being able to say anything because people are so paranoid that youre attacking them. Even when youre just making a general comment! I also think theres too many veiled comments where the underlying statement is 'your arguement/view is crap' I think you can debate without belittling someones opinion.
The emotional/paranoia level on this site is so high that its basically impossible to have a debate without someone flying off at the deep end about it. I think we recieve a complaint about most debate threads, but a lot of the time the person who posted something isnt meaning to make it personal and the person who reports it will take it personally.
I think its important for people to realise that just because some questions your opinion/view that theyre not always attacking you and there isnt always an alterior motive. I also think there are quite a lot of replies on debate threads that are taken as 'aggressive' rather than simply being heated about the topic in hand.
People need to remember that passion is very very high in that particular forum. I also think some people would do well to back away from threads like that for 5 mins to clear their heads, because coming back to things with a fresh eye is always good.
I never said that threads that spiral out of control are left, i said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acrasia
I think the problem is that, as you've said, moderators have different views on things, so it could take days to decide whether the gang like behaviour going on in a specific debate/discussion should be stopped - and by that time it may have already spiralled out of control.
Which is basically saying, because the moderators views differ when it comes to whether someone has broken a rule or not/whether a post needs editing - but that point, the persons (or people) who have post reported it are getting more and more upset that it's just left there, which means the replies end up more heated, more aggressive, and eventually the thread spirals out of control and gets locked. Which is what we're trying to avoid.
Basically, as you've already stated, emotions will always run high on websites such as RYL because of peoples pasts, because of peoples state of minds, because of peoples mental health issues, which means debate threads will ALWAYS be a problem on RYL. No matter what way you tackle it, they will always be problematic to the moderators in regards to reports/them becoming heated/personal attacks being thrown around.
The only way you will ever solve all these issues surrounding the debate forum is to close it down - and no one wants that. Which is why we're discussing ways in which to calm them down and make them run smoother.
I MADE myself walk away from the most recent debate thread which ended up locked, and i still came back, read the replies, and had the same opinion. So walking away for a "breather" just doesn't do it for me, because i still sense peoples aggressive tones, i still face people targetting others.
And if we're all honest, it is mostly the same people who end up getting a thread locked purely because of past problems & the fact these people just don't get on/or clash.
I still think the targetting issue needs to be addressed and kept an eye on. Because it is an ongoing problem that happens in these threads, it's the "us" against "them" mentality that ruins the threads.
People are mentioning emotions all the time and how people take things personally, but that is going to happen on a site like this! You can't avoid it! But you CAN help it, by stopping this gang like behaviour when it does rear it's ugly head! I don't think anyone can agree than 3-4 on 1 is fair. I even remember about the signatures/hidden boxes debate and typsee stepping in to back me up because i had the opinion of seeing no problem with them, whereas 10+ people were all going off at me. It wasn't nice but it was nice to have someone actually stand by me and say "Look she has a different opinion to yours, i respect her for sticking it out and standing by her guns" and i needed that boost for me to stick by my opinion because i was so close to turning around and agreeing with everyone but i've never wanted to be a follower, i've always wanted to go by what i believe in and my own opinions, but sometimes when you have so many people getting at you with there opinion and you have the opposite opinion, you do feel tempted to say hey..fine..i'm with you, whatever.
I like to think i do respect others opinions and i often say "I see your point but.." because it's just courtesy. But i would like my opinion respected as much as the next person and i personally never feel like they are, which is when i get defensive/aggressive as i have a bunch of people pouncing on me asking the same thing that i've already explained. It's very difficult when you're the "odd one out" to cope with everyone who doesn't agree with you.
hmmm... if a person has a view that is different to everyone else/ the majority.. isnt any reply going to seem like people are ganging up on them?
i think it would help too, if people read others posts before answering themselves. I know a lot of time there are large chunks of text to read, but it helps things to move better if people take them time to gather all the information thus far, rather than just posting their opinion and risk undo-ing what has just been sorted out, or just repeatng others.
It annoys me when people say.. i havent read any of the replies, but heres my opinion.
regading what you said about those that post reports.. we do try and keep people up to date on what we are discussing re: what theyve reported, we always always tell people if no action is taken. it is very very rare.. that people get overly irate and upset about the status of their post reports.
To your first question Charlie - No not at all. I don't expect people to agree with me, it's what a debate is all about, not everyone is going to agree with one another. However, as you've also stated, people aren't reading what others have said properly/not at all/skipping the posts, which leads to confrontation because the person who has the different opinion to everyone else is the one having more ad more people on the opposite side (so to speak) and more questions are being asked that have clearly already been answered.
Not sure if that makes sense, i'm just off to bed but i'll be back in the morning xx
I have to admit, I hope I am wrong in this...but, i don't see anyway to avoid this happening.
People are always going to become defensive/want to express their opinion themselves, regardless if someone(s) already said it. It's simply human nature; I do not see that changing.
It is simply too much to expect the mods to be able to fully regulate this. People need to regulate themselves...which isn't going to happen. This is a difficult area made even moreso due to the 'histories' (for lack of a better word) of the members that make it up.
I haven't seen the 'gang-like' activities, doesn't mean it isn't there, simply I havewn't seen it.
Acrasia, (Laura) I address this to you, with no malice, simply because of something you previously stated - that you tend to have a differing view.
I can understand how you may feel 'attacked', yet i wonder if it is simply because you are seeming to be the only one with a differing opinion, therefore people are addressing comments directly to you, for that very reason??
What may come across as 'ganging up' really isn't but since you may 'stand alone' on a side/opinion/feeling you are the only one to question?
I mean no disrespect, nor am i trying to excuse anything. I know how difficult it can be to have an opinion that is different, but no less valued or important for that! It is very difficult to be in that position and to then try and somehow not feel personally attacked.
Perhaps just hoping that everyone, NOT just you, could maybe take a step back before replying if they feel targetted/bullied...maybe threads wouldn't become so personal and agressive?
Maybe too, if a debate is becoming stalemated on a particular opinion, it could then be decided that a new avenue should be explored as the previous is finished and will only result in the thread being locked?
I don't know if that is feasible....
I just would hate to see the loss of this forum.
And, Laura, again, i mean no disrespect. Nor am i negatting how you may be feeling.
romp
(edit: i hope this made sense...it did in my head, perhaps i didn't word it well...)
