Where does RYL draw the line?

[Casper_Fading]

Sooo after I was reading a few of the threads around including the "do I have an ed?" thread, I'm wondering where the line is? Where do people stop using RYL as an excuse not to get help? I'm not talking about those who come here to get support to actually get help but for those who come ere and ask for a diagnosis and then do nothing. It's like they're thining "well the people on the interweb think I have this problem, why do I need to go to a doctor?" or "everyone cuts, people shouldn't treat me like it's a bad thing! It's normal" and then they come on and go "why do people treat me like cutting is bad when you all do it?"

Argh. I'm not explaining myself very well. I'm not criticising people for needing help. Or wanting support. Or even being afraid to go to a doctor. I'm not really critisicing at all. I just want to know where is the line? Where do you stop the softly softly approach and go "look. You need to see a doctor and stop this other rubbish about no one caring and no one helping! You don't know that becasue you've never bothered to ask".

I'm not having a go or anything, i'm just asking. SO if you have an issue, don't abuse me. Ta.

[Ingenue]

It's hard to decipher exactly where the line is, as people take things in different ways.
I personally have never received professional help, but i am in recovery. And that is due to people on here and at home telling me that i Had to do something about it now, whether it be through professional help or not. Even though some of them had felt the way i did, they said it's not okay to feel that way and not do anything about it.
I needed that kick up the backside and someone saying, actually it's NOT okay that you do this everyday, instead of the usual, "i know how you feel".
Even if you "know how they feel" there has to be a line where you say, we do feel like this but It's not okay.

I think it just has to be said in some situations. Because the reality of the situation is that being told to get help is hard to accept and do when people are saying there in the same situation and they know how you feel, yet there not getting help.
Its the whole, well if their not getting help then why should i mentality.

Owh, i think i just went off on a tangent. I'm sorry.
Basically, the line has to be drawn, but in some cases it's hard to do it in a way that will actually make the individual do something about it.//ramble.

[Fallen Rain]

This is a great thread.

Personally, the most help I've ever had from RYL was in 2005, about March, when someone told me something along the lines of 'it's not good enough that you know you won't kill yourself, that you are thinking along those lines is enough that you need to go and do something about it, get help.' That was the single most helpful thing anyone has said to me in my life, probably. Although many, many people on RYL have been absolutely fabulous in supporting me.

I think with people posting and refusing to get support, and I see a difference in refusing opposed to working towards that, is that some will post so that their friends will know what they're doing without directly telling them, some need validation or to feel as if they are at least doing something, some plain don't want help but want to know if anyone cares, and some people just want to... boast about their self harm? I'm not sure. And I know I'll get flamed for that and I'm not saying that's everyone, but it's certainly what comes across.

Another thing, on the otherside, I now struggle to give advice because it seems when I do, I might read that person's rant in the r&v forum to see how they're doing, and low and behold at least 7-8 times in the last six months people have referred, very obviously to me and said things like 'thanks A, you make me want to slit my wrists' or whatever, which is personally very upsetting and guilting to me. So that's going off on a tangent, but I'm using it to explain why some people won't give help now.

I think there's two things that need to happen, people need to put themselves out there to actually put into practise help, support needed to do things in therapy (I haven't looked at it but I imagine the therapy thread is quite good here), people need to reach out on both sides.

The culprits I think are the R&V forum, which I Find quite abusive to other people on the site and to recovery in general, the diagnostic threads and the first aid forum.

That;s just my thoughts though,feel free to tear them apart.

[The One Who]

Let's face it, no one is going to bother helping you if you don't start helping yourself. Some people want everyone else to do everything for them and don't think they need to do anything to get better. It has to come from you. If you don't want to get better/can't be bothered trying then it's never going to happen.

Sure, I'm depressed and I understand the complete despair that can come over you. Meds haven't helped me and counselling certainly didn't. But being around friends has. Taking up a sport I enjoy. Doing something.

I suffer from an ED, but I've never received professional support from it because I managed to beat it myself the first time and I know that I will again.

Sometimes we need to be honest and give people the wake up call they need and want. Self harm is not normal, and we all know this. RYL does normalise a lot of behaviours, but having so many people all going through and doing the same things results in that.

[Heidi Tiger]

Quote:

Let's face it, no one is going to bother helping you if you don't start helping yourself. Some people want everyone else to do everything for them and don't think they need to do anything to get better. It has to come from you. If you don't want to get better/can't be bothered trying then it's never going to happen.

This. That said though I do think it takes time for people to take responsibility for themselves and to realise their actions have consequences. I'll hold my hands up and admit that there was a time when I failed to take responsibility for myself, but it's a stage I got through, and I think other people have to go through it for themselves and I don't really think there's anything other people can do to help. It's kind of like when you first realise your parents are people and not just your parents, like obviously you know they are people, people can tell you that they are people, but there's a kind of enlightenment when you realise that they are people aswell as being your parents. Random example I know, but it's the best I could come up with. So I guess whilst it's massively frustrating when people don't take advice, you just have to hope they'll reach that stage when they are ready to take it, I think a lot of it is to do with emotional maturity.

PS. Abigail if you see people writing about you in their rant threads, I hope you have reported them because that is massively unfair of whoever did that.

[Solstice]

Love this thread and articulated beautifully. I have wondered myself. People go on the forums or come into chat and don't even bother taking the advice they are given. "My wound is gaping so and so cm, should I go to the hospital?" "I took a handful of pills, now what?" I know those aren't the exact things you were talking about but those things kind of apply to this thread as well.

I have a friend who if you say something stupid she flat out tells you "that's dumb" sometimes I think a few people around this site need to hear that, it's not that THEY are dumb, it's that what they are saying/doing is dumb. This place sometimes normalizes SI waaaaaaaay too much, making it seem okay to harm yourself, and at times making yourself wonder if there is anyone who DOESN'T do it, as it seems like people who come here typically become obsessed, this becomes their life and SI becomes what they believe is their identity. If not careful RYL can become a negative things for many many people. When used correctly it's not, when used wrong, it can have catostrophic consequences, unfortunately the second is true of soooo many because we don't typically have a very good idea of what moderation is.

My words aren't coming out exactly how I intended, but I love this post, thank you for having the courage to write it.

[Cryptic.]

I think it depends.

Back in December, I got a kick up the backside in two ways.
From my Dad, and from my health.(for reasons unrelated directly to my eating disorder).

From my Dad - We had quite a heated discussion about my eating disorder, which back then was far from in control. He made a lot of good points... and he was doing tough love with me. I think that is a reason I am now in recovery. He has been extremely supportive and he continues to be. So, yeah.

From my Health - On the 22nd December, I got very ill, and I still am ill, from then to now, I had to stop harming my body, I had to stop purging, to stop drinking excessively, exercising excessively, starving myself, restricting, cutting, overdosing, and I had to take care of myself, because I imagine if I carried on with my health the way it has been, I'd probably either be in hospital very ill, or worse... maybe dead. I don't know. All I know is, I am also in recovery because of my health.

A kick up the backside is what a lot of people need sometimes.

Good post.

[maria2]

For me, the line is always when a person needs emergency help or treatment, such as posting about a serious untreated injury, untreated OD and psychological emergencies such as feeling suicidal, or making a suicide plan. In such situations, I may post "Go to A+E, or call an emergency on call doctor" but I would be uncomfortable providing internet support when a person needs medical treatment or is in need of emergency psychiatric help (e.g. making suicide plans).

I do find the whole posting of "made a suicide plan" rather disturbing and unfair on those who are doing what they can to avoid suicide. Nevertheless such action is a psychiatric emergency - and something people should get medical/psychiatric help with.

There are those who say that if people talk about suicide, they are less likely to do it - in my experience this is simply not true, it depends on HOW they talk about it. Obcessing about it, and making plans, with others responding "I know how you feel" will only make matters worse, feed the obcessive thoughts, and put people more at risk.

Warm regards
Maria
ps. great thread by the way, interested in reading all comments - thanks for getting a great discussion started.

[Sometimes Crazy]

For other people on RYL...

At any point it's needed, really. I mean, there's a difference between needing some emotional support/encouragement/nice words, and then asking us to help where we clearly can't even if we WERE trained professionals because this is a support site on the internet.

For myself...

I think a big turning point is realising that you have to put in work yourself and that you can't rely on other people to "fix" you. That's the most empowering thing I can think of. You don't have to be recovering or thinking of recovery (I guess you'd class me as not trying to recover at the moment), and it doesn't even really depend on how well the mental health services are in your area. Knowing that you can put the work in to help yourself, that you are being proactive and doing something... costs nothing, but helps everything.

The answer to your question? Nowhere.
It isn't upto RYL to point these people in the right direction. From what i've been seeing recently enough members are telling these other people that are wanting a diagnosis online/who aren't willing to help themselves/who aren't willing to listen to advice etc, that if they aren't going to seek outside help there's nothing anyone on here can do for them.
And that's all anyone can do. It isn't RYL's responsibility to be deleting the threads or to take further action - the website can't help these people coming in and causing these ongoing issues. It's just one of those things you either have to ignore, or tell the OP exactly how it is, especially if you're seeing regular ongoing threads by them.

[surprising mystery]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrasia

The answer to your question? Nowhere.
It isn't upto RYL to point these people in the right direction. From what i've been seeing recently enough members are telling these other people that are wanting a diagnosis online/who aren't willing to help themselves/who aren't willing to listen to advice etc, that if they aren't going to seek outside help there's nothing anyone on here can do for them.
And that's all anyone can do. It isn't RYL's responsibility to be deleting the threads or to take further action - the website can't help these people coming in and causing these ongoing issues. It's just one of those things you either have to ignore, or tell the OP exactly how it is, especially if you're seeing regular ongoing threads by them.

This is what I was thinking, I didnt really have an answer, since I dont really see it as an issue in the sense that there is an answer to give. You just got to keep telling people. So many new people will come in and out, its pretty much all you can do.

[Casper_Fading]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic.

Love this thread and articulated beautifully. I have wondered myself. People go on the forums or come into chat and don't even bother taking the advice they are given. "My wound is gaping so and so cm, should I go to the hospital?" "I took a handful of pills, now what?" I know those aren't the exact things you were talking about but those things kind of apply to this thread as well.

I have a friend who if you say something stupid she flat out tells you "that's dumb" sometimes I think a few people around this site need to hear that, it's not that THEY are dumb, it's that what they are saying/doing is dumb. This place sometimes normalizes SI waaaaaaaay too much, making it seem okay to harm yourself, and at times making yourself wonder if there is anyone who DOESN'T do it, as it seems like people who come here typically become obsessed, this becomes their life and SI becomes what they believe is their identity. If not careful RYL can become a negative things for many many people. When used correctly it's not, when used wrong, it can have catostrophic consequences, unfortunately the second is true of soooo many because we don't typically have a very good idea of what moderation is.

My words aren't coming out exactly how I intended, but I love this post, thank you for having the courage to write it.

Your post is great but I wanted to highlight this bit (cause I can ).

I don't do softly softly anymore. I used to and had more then one friend kill themselves... now, that's not my fault, I do know that. But I do wonder... if I had just said to them "look. you're not just hurting yourself but everyone around you. you need to get help, so do so." Now sometimes there are obstacles in the way, lack of services in your area, stupid doctors. But there is always a choice. Even if it's relying on friends to get you through. Saving money to pay for transport to a different area, finding a counsellor who will do phone consultations.... those are a few. Just yesterday I said to a friend that she needs to stop telling everyone that no one cares and she has nothing to live for. Because if she keep telling all her friends that no one cares, soon she will have no friends left. And all her friends said "thank you Jess for saying what we couldn't say". When people ask for advice and don't take it, it's like... a slap in the face sort of thing.

Have you ever given advice to someone and then watched them completely ignore it and then complain to everyone around them that no body cares?

RYL is a support site. Maybe that is something that needs to be repeated over and over again until people stop expecting medical diagnosis.

Please don't use this as an excuse to start abusing the FA board again. That argument is tired and old. If I chose to do so, I could go to any board on here and find posts to support this.

RYL is an escape from reality. How do you help people realise that an escape is something that must be used as just that. An escape. A respite per se. Reality must be returned to. Cutting yourself is not okay. Even if it helps, it's not okay. It's never okay to harm yourself. If someone said "cocaine helps me to chill out. I do it about 10 times a day" would you tell them it's okay??? Self harm is bad. Drinking excessively all the time is bad. Drugs are bad. But if you come on a place where some of those things are common because that is what this place is for... and that's great to be around people who do the same things as you so you can get support and understanding.... But when you start to think the internet is real life and the way you're treated in real life is horrid and wrong and "how dare they treat my self harm is bad when I know so many people who self harm". Well... guess what? Self harm is never going to be okay. I do hope that one day self harmers can be treated with dignity and respect but I don't ever want self harm to be normalised so that people think it's okay.

Blah blah blah. I think i'm babbling and not sure i'm making much sense. Sorry if i'm confusing peoples.

[lozza]

^ nicely said jess!!

[SilentJudgement]

In answer to this question.

Have you ever given advice to someone and then watched them completely ignore it and then complain to everyone around them that no body cares?

Yes. I could babble about several occasions but it happens a lot. I agree with Jess :)

[Lou Lou]

You know, I agree whole heartedly with what has been said in the various replies, but I honestly don't think there is any way to "draw a line".
I mean, who would be drawing the line, whose responsibilty is it? Harley? Mods? Random members?

It is, unfortunately, something that will always happen. There will always be those who refuse to help themselves out; those who will simply wallow in their own self pity. I was one of them once and I'm sure most honest people would admit that they, too, have been in that position.

As Heidi pointed out, each individual has to come to the realisation on their own. There is no way to force a person to get help, only persuasion and them taking responsibilty for themselves.

However, I would defintely agree that 'softly softly' doesn't work. Saying "it's ok....we've all been there" is so painfully detrimental to people who are already a danger. In that sense, the responsibilty lies with the members who can respond in a more realisitic way.

I think the only way a person is ever going to get to the realisation that they need help is if others point it out. It is incrediably frustrating when all your best support and adivce is met with a stream of "yeah but's..." but I think it is necessary to realise that we can't help anymore than they think we can.
It has been said a thousand and one times....RYL is just a website. We are not professional advice or diagnosis. So why then, do we take it so personally when we see our advice hasn't helped anyone?

The important thing to remember is that giving someone the truth has at least planted the seed. Tell someone they need a professional and eventually they will get to a place where they can get up and get that help.
Looking at the posts on RYL it is easy to see those who have a responsible grasp on reality and are trying to pass it on to those in a bad place. I have always found that one truthful, realistic answer totally overshadows the chorus of "It's ok, we've all been there" because it is pointedly different. It stands out and for the most part people don't say things quite so bluntly unless it is important....so....I forget what my point was

People are never going to stop self diagnosing or grappling for attention with thier posts and for every person who grows apart from that, another one will take their place. It is massively frustrating, I know, but all anyone can do is keep people in reality, keep them pointed in the right direction and hope for the best.

It is no one's responsibility to "save" anyone. Espeically not on here. If your advice has been rejected at least you know you said all you could. You can no more force someone to take your advice as you can force them from their computer desk and into a doctors office. We all do what we can and frankly that's all anyone can ask.

I think this was a bit garbled and all over the place. My point being you can't draw a line, you can only put forward your advice and hope it screams a little louder than all the rest.

[Casper_Fading]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lou Lou

You know, I agree whole heartedly with what has been said in the various replies, but I honestly don't think there is any way to "draw a line".
I mean, who would be drawing the line, whose responsibilty is it? Harley? Mods? Random members?

It is, unfortunately, something that will always happen. There will always be those who refuse to help themselves out; those who will simply wallow in their own self pity. I was one of them once and I'm sure most honest people would admit that they, too, have been in that position.

As Heidi pointed out, each individual has to come to the realisation on their own. There is no way to force a person to get help, only persuasion and them taking responsibilty for themselves.

However, I would defintely agree that 'softly softly' doesn't work. Saying "it's ok....we've all been there" is so painfully detrimental to people who are already a danger. In that sense, the responsibilty lies with the members who can respond in a more realisitic way.

I think the only way a person is ever going to get to the realisation that they need help is if others point it out. It is incrediably frustrating when all your best support and adivce is met with a stream of "yeah but's..." but I think it is necessary to realise that we can't help anymore than they think we can.
It has been said a thousand and one times....RYL is just a website. We are not professional advice or diagnosis. So why then, do we take it so personally when we see our advice hasn't helped anyone?

The important thing to remember is that giving someone the truth has at least planted the seed. Tell someone they need a professional and eventually they will get to a place where they can get up and get that help.
Looking at the posts on RYL it is easy to see those who have a responsible grasp on reality and are trying to pass it on to those in a bad place. I have always found that one truthful, realistic answer totally overshadows the chorus of "It's ok, we've all been there" because it is pointedly different. It stands out and for the most part people don't say things quite so bluntly unless it is important....so....I forget what my point was

People are never going to stop self diagnosing or grappling for attention with thier posts and for every person who grows apart from that, another one will take their place. It is massively frustrating, I know, but all anyone can do is keep people in reality, keep them pointed in the right direction and hope for the best.

It is no one's responsibility to "save" anyone. Espeically not on here. If your advice has been rejected at least you know you said all you could. You can no more force someone to take your advice as you can force them from their computer desk and into a doctors office. We all do what we can and frankly that's all anyone can ask.

I think this was a bit garbled and all over the place. My point being you can't draw a line, you can only put forward your advice and hope it screams a little louder than all the rest.

The bolded bit is reeeeeeeeeeeeealy well put!

I've been thinking some more (don't laugh my brain hurts now lol) and it's like children... if they fall over and scrape their knee you can have two reactions! One: OMG YOu poor darling, are you okay, poor little thing *gush gush gush*. Reaction to this? Child is freaked out and the scraped knee becomes as serious as a broken bone! But reaction two: You'll be okay sweetheart, let me kiss it better. *mwah* Now off you go" Childs reaction? *runs off to keep playing* I have a vivid memory of watching my little brother running after my big brother and his friends and tripping and scraping his knee. He sat up crying and looked around but because my mum didn't see, he kissed his OWN knee better and got up to keep going!

My point is this: if someone says "omg this horrible thing happened today" and peoples reactions are "oh no! oh you poor thing, are yo okay? oh that is so horrible" you're focusing on the negative. Whereas if you're response is "Oh wow, that was horrible, but well done on getting through it! You shoul dbe proud of yourself" you're acknowledging that something bad did happen but that the person got through it and did it well! But it's so much easier to focus on the negative part of something. I know I do it sometimes and it's something I am working very hard to change... sometimes going "oh no you poor thing, i'm so sorry" is so much easier to do then think about a positive spin on things...

[Dreaming.]

Jess, you make so much sense.
Hear hear to what you just said.

[surprising mystery]

Reminds me of the instance where my gf's neice falls over, but her parents dont want anyone to gush and go ohhh noooo, cos thats when she starts crying, not cos it hurts, cos for a little kid its the reaction your showing her to take.

Im sure I have not taken someones advice in the past and then moaned nobody cares, but thats not right, and it pisses me off when other people do that, but there is nothing to be done, just hope they listen to advice eventually.

~pointless post maybe.

[Fitzwilliam]

Hmm. I feel a bit rude posting my thoughts on this as I'm not on here as often as I used to be, but I guess I will anyway.

When I was going through my worst part of stuff the best things that some people said, for me, was to go to the doctors or tell someone. Because then you know there is something you can do to help yourself instead of feeling so helpless. The support is brilliant too like saying: i know how you feel etc. But sometimes I do think people need to be told to go and get help, and supported at the same time. Am I making any sense?
Here is a great place to go to to get support, but somewhere someone's gotta say: Go get help. Because it isn't okay. And someone outside of RYL will probably say go get help, so why can't we?

[xxanniekayxx]

Thing is, some people just think they might fit the criteria for something but don't want to bring it up or don't know enough about it to ask their psycologist/doctor about it. Once they know someone else has gone through something similar, it makes it easier for them to talk to their doctor about it because they probably won't feel like the doctor in question has never heard it or anything like it before.

Sure, some people need a reality check, but you never know. Each case is diffrent and you can't really group them together and generalize.