And this has anything to do with the topic of conversation because.... ? There is a world of difference between murder and downloading music. Stick to the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreaming.
I wasn't comparing illegal downloading per-ce with rape and murder, but more the logic that you should do what you want to do, regardless of consequences.
They are comparable in that situation, because we're discussing the logic behind it, not necessarily the actual act.
Not really bothered to read all the replies, merely giving my two cents.
I download the odd album, but mostly i download games. Not big games you can buy in the shops - small ones from companies like bigfishgames.com (thats a ledgit site where you pay for games). I can't afford to be paying money daily for a game i may, or may not like. As i am unemployed, a lot of my time is spent at home with no distractions. With my moods often dropping dramatically, i need that distraction - and silly free online games just don't do it for me. I need something i can get my teeth into and enjoy.
I don't feel guilty, not at all. I'd rather be downloading the odd game than slicing my arms open or ending up in hospital from overdoses because i have nothing to keep ME distracted from such things. I don't download movies, or series, i rarely download albums if at all, i also pay a subscription fee for clubpogo.com which also keeps me distracted.
I'm not physically hurting anyone by downloading a few games. I will never feel guilty for what i do, ever. I don't go out murdering people, or stabbing people. I don't go out into supermarkets and steal food, or go out shopping and steal clothes. I download a few £3.99 games per week online - whoopdy doo.
If it's available, then so be it. If people want to risk doing it - that's upto them. If you want to be "all ledgit" and buy everything - good for you, but not all of us can afford to do that. Some of us have bills and debts to pay, and live off pennies the government gives us because we're ill. If i could go out and work i would. I don't recieve money from mummy or daddy, i don't live rent free, i pay for everything other than a few online games. If that makes me a "bad person" then i'm quite happy being one.
Guilty. Movies weekly, and a band discography every month or so. A 4-6gb game every quarter or so.
And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! -- Not a vegetarian
i think that people dont care about downloading is because you cant see the effects of what you do.
if you rob someone you, know who you robbed.
'taking' a file on the internet hasnt go the same feeling to it. so people feel less guilt, less fear of being caught so dont see the risk in it or feel bad about it.
People loose jobs because people up higher wich to keep a nice project margin for themselves and not be more fair and lower their big share to keep jobs. Theres clearly enough profit passed onto people who dont need it for there to be spare.
The companies are businesses, and at the end of the day they need to make profit and be able to remain competitive. Capitalism is inherently unfair in its wealth distribution, but that's the system.
While I don't believe in IP to begin with, the most I will concede to you on this point would be that the band owns their songs. That does not mean the record company does, regardless of any contracts. I am not stealing anything the record company produces. I am not stealing actual property that they produce being the CDs, merch, etc. The record company does not produce the songs, the band does. I do not feel bad for people losing their jobs in record sales, they should find a new job if their job is not working out for them. My dad use to own a CD store, and I still downloaded music. If people can't adapt to the changing market, they should fail, that is also capitalism. Nine Inch Nails, I believe, as well as a few other bands put their album online for free and asked their fans to pay what they felt it was worth, it was profitable. There are ways to use downloading to the bands advantage and cut off the record company whores.
I also enjoy live music, something you can't download. I've seen many bands, many times, and often bought shirts. That is way more than the price of an album, and goes for the most part directly back to the band and is something tangible they own, their performance. To a thing you mentioned earlier, how you couldn't play the music and claim it as your own, and in my ideal you could, but when it came down to the choice of seeing a cover band or original, I'd much rather see the original. An example of this being Bad Fish (sublime cover band) and Sublime. While I wouldn't care if Bad Fish got Sublimes permission or not to play their songs(but I'm assuming they did) if I had the opportunity to choose, I'd much rather see Sublime live - although I can't, but eh, not the point.
Also, regardless of all that, I still don't believe in IP and any utilitarian arguement or appeal to emotion over jobs does nothing to change my ethics and I still do not find downloading morally wrong because no one can own an idea. I would find it morally wrong to take physical property from the record company, but I'm not, and so I don't care.
Not sure if this is true, but I have been told that the site I use to download free music is technically legal to use - but only as long as you are downloading, not uploading or sharing the music files. Once I have downloaded my music I press some thing called 'stop sharing file', and it is like I never downloaded it because I am not hosting the file on my computer, so other people cannot download it from me. *not sure if my language is technically correct as I don't talk computer speak*
I may be completely wrong on this, and I know it will not satisfy the moral objection some people have to taking free music. But if I am not technically doing anything wrong, then I think I will carry on doing it.
Please correct me if what I just wrote is rubbish.
I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell. I know, right now you can't tell. But stay a while and maybe then you'll see A different side of me Unwell - Matchbox 20
"Why inflict pain on oneself, when so many others are ready to save us the trouble?"
George Pacaud (1879 - 1937)
Not sure if this is true, but I have been told that the site I use to download free music is technically legal to use - but only as long as you are downloading, not uploading or sharing the music files.
It's not true, at least not in the UK (or the US or Australia). In Canada, only uploading or sharing copyrighted material without permission is illegal, and simply downloading it is not, but in the UK (and the US and Australia), it is illegal to download copyrighted material without permission, as well as to upload or share it. Since the laws vary by country, there's often conflicting information, but you're subject the laws of whatever country you're in, and no other countries have any jurisdiction over you. If the site you're downloading from is located in Canada, or someplace else with similar laws in this area, the site can say that it's legal to download anything, just not to upload copyrighted material without permission, but that wouldn't apply to you since you're in the UK. Or if you heard it from someone else, if it was someone online that may be true where they live, or else they may have read it someplace and not noticed that it was for a different country (which is often quite easy to do as many sites don't specify what country they're talking about, and you'd have to figure out where the site is based to know where the information applies, and even so they might have misinformation from making a similar error).
Last edited by ~invisible~girl~ : 04-03-2009 at 11:52 PM.
Emily
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However, considering I will probably carry on doing it regardless, say they did a random raid on this particular site and prosecuted people who had used it, they would be most likely to get those who were sharing stuff right? There must be a list thousands long of people who had downloaded stuff, but comparatively few who actively upload and share.
I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell. I know, right now you can't tell. But stay a while and maybe then you'll see A different side of me Unwell - Matchbox 20
"Why inflict pain on oneself, when so many others are ready to save us the trouble?"
George Pacaud (1879 - 1937)
In the US, they do go after people who are just downloading, even if they're not uploading anything. My understanding though is that in the UK they haven't been as aggressive about prosecuting people, so they'd be less likely to go after you there than they are here. But in the US, there's even pressure to force universities and such to monitor student's internet use to catch people who are illegally downloading copyrighted material (whether they're uploading anything or not). They tend not to be so concerned with whether people are uploading as well or just downloading unless they're uploading exceptionally large amounts of material, as most people who upload material are simply people who didn't turn off the automatic sharing feature on most P2P clients, and aren't actively trying to upload additional content or anything.
Emily
(\__/)
(O.o )
(> < ) This Is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
when i was younger, i used to use certain file sharing sites. (was going to mention the name, but didn't want my post edited. =P)
i only use itunes now to buy the odd single when i want it.
it's not expensive, and i think its petty for people to believe they are beating the system and sticking two fingers up to corperate execs by refusing to buy music etc.
whatever happened to waiting until christmas or your birthday and asking your parents for loads of albums?
buy your music.
jeez
And climb high to the highest rung, to shake fists at the sky.
They will most likely find you out if you're uploading and sharing files, your IP address will be all over the place.
I don't share files i download, as soon as it hits 100% i remove it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissism
whatever happened to waiting until christmas or your birthday and asking your parents for loads of albums?
buy your music.
jeez
What about people who don't RECIEVE presents? I get £10 for christmas from my parents, which i'd like to spend on things i actually need rather than things i want. Not all of us have mummy and daddy to give us presents, a lot of us have outgrown that stage. I never used to download during school, and always brought my own albums with money from a saturday job or the like.
Not all of us have the ability to recieve presents, nor can we afford to go out buying albums all the time.
What about people who don't RECIEVE presents? I get £10 for christmas from my parents, which i'd like to spend on things i actually need rather than things i want.
My mum never had much money, but still got me and my brother all she could if we really wanted it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acrasia
Not all of us have mummy and daddy to give us presents, a lot of us have outgrown that stage.
Don't talk to me like i'm only 14. I'm 18 ok. and how can you exactly grow out of being excited about your birthday?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acrasia
I never used to download during school, and always brought my own albums with money from a saturday job or the like.
Not all of us have the ability to recieve presents, nor can we afford to go out buying albums all the time.
Downloading illiegally is still stealing, whether you sugar coat it with "filesharing" or bullsh*t about not having much money.
I go to college and i also work.
All the music i buy now, is brought with MY money.
Money that I've earn't.
As a lot of people have said, it's still stealing if you take a loaf of bread from a shop without paying for it.
People think that they are annonomous (sp?) on the internet.
But that doesn't give a reason to steal.
And climb high to the highest rung, to shake fists at the sky.
Not all of us have the ability to recieve presents, nor can we afford to go out buying albums all the time.
Then just go without the music until you can afford it?
I'm not saying that horribly either, i download songs sometimes but it's still true that it's illegal and you (i use that in a general everybody sense) should just wait till you can afford to get it. Music isn't needed to live, especially with youtube etc.. where you can listen for free anyway.
Ali xox
With demons dancing off mirror images reflecting all that you wanted.
So far from perfect, onward we will strive.
Take it for what it's worth, this truth that you've realized.
You're not who you thought you were, it's time to see the other side of what you have become.
As a lot of people have said, it's still stealing if you take a loaf of bread from a shop without paying for it.
People think that they are annonomous (sp?) on the internet.
But that doesn't give a reason to steal.
It would be stealing if we were taking physical property. The reason taking bread from a shop is stealing is because when you take it, the previous owner no longer has that loaf. It's a finite resource and someone put effort and labor into the creation of that bread making it theirs. Much capital, resources and work are put into the making of physical CDs, but that is not what is being taken. If there were infinite amount of bread, to where when you take from the shop they still have the same amount at the end, where taking only multipled the bread, would you consider it stealing? It may drastically reduce the price of bread, but no one is deprived of their property. The owner still has their bread. Now, physical property doesn't and can't work like this, but ideas do. Once I come up with an idea and express it, it's in the public domain whether I like it or not. I can hire men with guns (governments through copyrights) to protect from anyone using the idea, but I personally disagree with that and which is why I don't feel morally obligated to follow copyright laws.
The law is the law whether you "feel morally obliged" to follow it or not. A psychopath may not have any moral convictions at all - does that render all laws obselete to that person?
And as for your opinions as regards intellectual property, using your reasoning, imagine that you had just invented some new fantastic product. It cost you a lot of time, money and effort but you have a patent on that invnetion and intend to put it into production to make some money to live off. Someone else then comes along, takes your invention, utterly disregards your patent because they "don't feel morally obliged to follow" patent laws and makes and sells it themselves. Because they have no development costs, they are able to sell it far cheaper than you, put you out of business and you get nothing out of it. Is that fair?
Patent laws are there to protect an idea from being copied without your consent and to insure you get something for coming up with it. Copyright laws are in that sense exactly the same. Whatever your "moral convictions", following your reasoning to its logical conclusion, no one would have any incentive to ever produce anything and humankind progess (be it artistic or technological) would cease.
The arguement of whether it's stealing or not is a moot point. No it's not stealing. Yes it is illegal and yes it is wrong.
guilty..... but when i DO download it, i try and download mostly better known bands so it won't hurt them as much that i'm not paying for it, and buy less well known artists music.
i don't really have a huge issue with illegal downloading, and some artists really feel it's more about the music and less about the money.
if i had it my way, all art would be free, but the poor artists then :(
It would be stealing if we were taking physical property. The reason taking bread from a shop is stealing is because when you take it, the previous owner no longer has that loaf. It's a finite resource and someone put effort and labor into the creation of that bread making it theirs. Much capital, resources and work are put into the making of physical CDs, but that is not what is being taken. If there were infinite amount of bread, to where when you take from the shop they still have the same amount at the end, where taking only multipled the bread, would you consider it stealing? It may drastically reduce the price of bread, but no one is deprived of their property. The owner still has their bread. Now, physical property doesn't and can't work like this, but ideas do. Once I come up with an idea and express it, it's in the public domain whether I like it or not. I can hire men with guns (governments through copyrights) to protect from anyone using the idea, but I personally disagree with that and which is why I don't feel morally obligated to follow copyright laws.
QFT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissism
My mum never had much money, but still got me and my brother all she could if we really wanted it.
Don't talk to me like i'm only 14. I'm 18 ok. and how can you exactly grow out of being excited about your birthday?
Downloading illiegally is still stealing, whether you sugar coat it with "filesharing" or bullsh*t about not having much money.
I go to college and i also work.
All the music i buy now, is brought with MY money.
Money that I've earn't.
As a lot of people have said, it's still stealing if you take a loaf of bread from a shop without paying for it.
People think that they are annonomous (sp?) on the internet.
But that doesn't give a reason to steal.
Well, maybe if you didn't make assumptions about everyones personal circumstances, i wouldn't need to speak to you in a patronising manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindSpot.
Then just go without the music until you can afford it?
I'm not saying that horribly either, i download songs sometimes but it's still true that it's illegal and you (i use that in a general everybody sense) should just wait till you can afford to get it. Music isn't needed to live, especially with youtube etc.. where you can listen for free anyway.
Ali xox
If you'd bothered to read my previous post, you'd know i very very rarely download music - if at all. I go on youtube and the like if i wish to listen to music, or listen to what i've already got.
And, i won't go into the stealing lark because DreamofUnity has pretty much stated everything i was going to say.
And i'm quite happy not to go without games i'd like "until i can afford them", because more likely than not i will never beable to afford what i'd "like" because i'm busy paying for things i need, and busy paying my bills.
I download all my music and I find there is nothing morally wrong with it, it hurts the record companies a lot more than the artists, and I don't care about how much some ceo is making.
