When I first posted on this thread I did not intend to be rude but, with hindsight, I can see that my remarks were overly robust - and I did apologise very shortly afterwards.
For a final word on gender roles, I was a soldier all my working life. The army is pretty good at allowing people time off if a family emergency occurs, but it does expect soldiers to work all the hours it requires of them and that does not permit soldiers to spend half their day at home with their family. Instead, the wife takes up the strain. If her family situation allows, she may get a part-time or even a full-time job. But if it doesn't, it's down to her while her man is away in say Afghanistan.
We've all seen the TV pictures of the reunions that take place when a regiment gets back to UK. I'm not for a moment saying that all civilian relationships should follow this pattern (those involved must work it out for themselves) but for those in the services there's not much alternative. Separation is a major part of the game, like it or not - and a lot of service wives don't like it and want their husbands out, understandably. And of course I acknowledge that there are very many women playing important roles in the services and no doubt a proportion of them are married, though I suspect that few of them leave husbands looking after the children while they serve abroad (go on, someone will prove me wrong!)
All of which leads me to conclude that while those in a relationship are of course free to decide their respective roles - and do so - I suspect that there are more relationships still in UK where man is the primary hunter-gatherer and the woman the nurturer. This may very well be changing, as some of your replies have suggested, and it may change fast - I don't know.
But finally let me make it quite clear that in those relationships where the woman is the nurturer, it does not makes her any less valuable or important - it can reasonably be argued that she's actually more important since she's the one moulding the future generation, while her man is merely hunter-gathering or bean-counting as the case may be ...
Tony what if the woman was in the army and the guy a civilian? Who will keep house whilst she is called away to war - even if not allowed on the front line (or have they abolished that too?)
On another note, mike subway rules....i'm gonna make a subway sanwich thread
Mand, South Wales, Full-time working, single mother to 2 scarily independent girls.
I AM A PROUD PLUMERIA SISTER
I don't think you can judge an entire population on the makeup of armed forces - which require specific roles to be filled and specific skills and abilities that are not generalised to an entire general population.
Obviously this is your point of view very much influenced by your personal life experiences, culture, upbringing and generation.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.
I have thoughts about this but I am not sure how to word them.
Firstly, in response to the initial question about the placement of adverts, yes, it is sexist. I told my Dad and he thought it was disgusting. And at our work, both cleaners are actually male.
With the comments made since - I do think there is some relevance in our evolutionary roles shaping our behaviour. Whether we like it or not women are geared more towards nurturing, gossiping, and maintaining social groups etc. that's not to say that is all we can do, and indeed many women are not nurturing at all, I personally am not sure I want children, but I still play the nurturing role more often than not in caring for my pets, cooking for my boyfriend etc. (although he does most of the washing and cleaning).
I listened to a talk recently about some research on a bird species up in Russia, and other similar talks from people who work in Madagasar, Iceland etc. and the common trend in all of these projects is that they all required months away from home, and it was predominantly men (or single women) that took part. So I think Tonys comment about army wife's/partners staying at home and whether the reverse would happen is kind of valid. I can't see many husbands staying at home to look after the kids for 6 months on their own. But of course some would.
Also - sexism works in reverse. I get seriously annoyed by sexism a lot of the time (like on Kili when they made us walk boy-girl up Barranco Wall so we would have a man to help us if we got stuck - I flew past all the men lol). But reverse sexism annoys me too. I have seen job adverts state that applications from women or disabled people are especially welcome. Presumably because they feel they have to even up their workforce. To me you should just employ the best person for the job.
Sexism still exists a lot in language anyway- postman, fireman, ice cream man (once awkwardly at a kids party the entertainer said, right, go get your ice creams from the ice cream man, when in fact it was an ice cream lady)
We have fire fighters, police officers and ice-cream vans, I never point out 'firemen' to my kids, but 'fire engines' and i only point out police men/women if I can see it is infact a man/woman
Mand, South Wales, Full-time working, single mother to 2 scarily independent girls.
I AM A PROUD PLUMERIA SISTER
I don't think you can judge an entire population on the makeup of armed forces - which require specific roles to be filled and specific skills and abilities that are not generalised to an entire general population.
Obviously this is your point of view very much influenced by your personal life experiences, culture, upbringing and generation.
Actually, effervescence, I wasn't for a moment trying to suggest that the vast bulk of the UK (or NZ) population should in any way have to model their lives on the patterns of servicemen and women. I was merely using them as an example of the sort of situations where men have little choice but to be the primary breadwinner and their partner is left, willingly or unwillingly, to be the nurturer. No doubt I expressed myself badly. But I'll still bet that in the majority (though of course not all) of hetero relationships in UK the man is primarily the earner and the woman the nurturer. Which I suspect is much as nature intended!
And of course my point of view is influenced by my personal life experiences etc - so too are yours and everybody's. The difference is that my life experiences are so much greater and more profound than yours (joking of course!)
And, Mandi, if a servicewoman is married to a civilian husband and they have children then it is going to be down to the husband to cope with the nurturing bit - 'cos she certainly won't be able to. In my day in the army the vast majority of women were single and the rules required that if they got pregnant they were required to leave - which (brutally) solved the problems for the army. And at that time a high proportion of women soldiers were lesbians (fact, which I won't attempt to justify on this site), so they were not at serious risk! (unless of course they sought help from sperm donors as has already been mentioned on this thread!) Question for a man: what is your profession? Oh, I'm actually a sperm donor! What a comfortable response to a question in a pub or at a cocktail party...
Tony (now I'll be crucified not only for sexism but for not being a sperm donor ...
But I'll still bet that in the majority (though of course not all) of hetero relationships in UK the man is primarily the earner and the woman the nurturer. Which I suspect is much as nature intended!
Technically my other half is both. We both work however he is the highest earner & he does all the cooking. He's a chef so it makes sense for him to do all the cooking unless he suddenly had the urge to live off beans on toast. I just keep the sofa warm.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
gf and I both work. She works more and makes more than I do. She also has a driving permit which I do not have so she drives me to work in the morning (I walk in the evening). We both cook, but she is often less tired than I am and does a lot of the cooking by choice. I don't feel like any less of a man. ._.
tu as tant de choses à dire,
mais le tout reste enfermer.
et quand tu ne sais plus quoi dire,
tu te mets à pleurer.
Mais ça ton publique le voit pas,
tu l'incites à rêver, pendant que toi tu le regarde...
As to the question in the original post, it's definitely questionable. Have they done anything else that suggests they they favor certain tasks for men and others for women? Because it might be that rather than them thinking that only a woman should be allowed to do the cleaning, they might have assumed that women would be the only ones applying, and therefore didn't bother putting any fliers in the men's room. It's not the wisest move, but they could have had a professional brain fart.
It's also possible that one of the men working there was offended that your boss(es) would dare suggest that a man should be cleaning, and so took it upon himself to remove the fliers in the men's rooms. I obviously don't know your coworkers, but it's something to consider.
Either way, I hope that closing this door opens another one for you!
~Hiding Amaranth
"Just because you know my name
Doesn't mean you know my game"
~Marina & The Diamonds - "The Outsider"
Question for a man: what is your profession? Oh, I'm actually a sperm donor! What a comfortable response to a question in a pub or at a cocktail party...
Okay, frankly, this comment is just lame. Why do you have to take everything to the nth degree? Men don't donate as a profession - they might repeatedly donate, or do it as a one off, or do it for specific people. Not as a job, they have actual jobs too.... Often medical students actually.
And, actually, if they had donated sperm and thus helped an infertile couple have the family they desperately desire, and are secure enough in their identity and kind actions to share this information with others, why would that be an uncomfortable response?
Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.
And, actually, if they had donated sperm and thus helped an infertile couple have the family they desperately desire, and are secure enough in their identity and kind actions to share this information with others, why would that be an uncomfortable response?
tu as tant de choses à dire,
mais le tout reste enfermer.
et quand tu ne sais plus quoi dire,
tu te mets à pleurer.
Mais ça ton publique le voit pas,
tu l'incites à rêver, pendant que toi tu le regarde...
Men don't donate as a profession - they might repeatedly donate, or do it as a one off, or do it for specific people.
I'm pretty sure there's a limit to how many times a guy can donate sperm. Too many donations, and you run the risk of causing an accidental incest problem down the road.
~Hiding Amaranth
"Just because you know my name
Doesn't mean you know my game"
~Marina & The Diamonds - "The Outsider"
There is, in NZ you can donate to 5 families for up to two children per family, so you could "generate" as such, 10 children. Or you can just do a one-off random donation, or a specific one for a specific person.
Anyway off topic lol.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.
