It doesn't bother me to be honest, I think what can be a helpful question can attract unhelpful/ competitive answers but you don't stop asking.
I think the thread about carving words could evolve into an unhelpful thread in general, but the question asked is absolutely fine. I guess any question about 'what you do and how you do it' is going to give people who want understanding, understanding and people looking for tips, tips.
I think it has more to do with the reader than the writer sometimes.
i suppose the simplest thing to say is what do you mean by helpful? some people will find it helpful to talk about SI and others wont. i can understand how it may be seen as normalising SI, but i also know others will see that as a safe or comforting atmosphere. if you ask me it will all depend upon what you want from the forum. i dont want this to be taken the wrong way, but most of the people in the SI forum are the youngest members on the site, and really as a teenager your mostly just looking for acceptance, not recovery. i dont believe however that that makes the SI forum useless, as people will most likely have underlying problems that lead them to SI, which if they feel safe, they might talk about on other parts of the site.
what is it that you want from the SI forum? how would you change it?
"I'd rather not have my personality be aligned with my self-harm. Yes, it is a part of me, but it is not what makes me who I am. I do not associate my personality with my self-harm at all."
I'm sorry I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I don't consider self harming to be part of my- or others- personalities. I don't want to be defined by my self harm!
All I meant was that it makes others with self harm difficulties real rather than statistics.
I see where you are saying that these behaviors should be challenged more on the boards, and addressed more head-on, but there is also a disclaimer right on the site's page that says this isn't a substitute for professional help. Every time I port in support, I ask myself whether I'm going to do more harm than good by asking probing questions and trying to get at the root of things. I'm not a therapist, I don't know the kinds of questions to ask. I definitely do not want to hurt someone's feelings, or make them think they're not welcome to post here just to receive validation or hugs if that is what they desire.
Second thing...I don't know about anyone else, but at times I do revel in the fact that I self-harm.
On that same topic, I think it's important to accept the fact of one's own self-harm before concentrated, serious effort can be made to overcome it. Like the 666th Pope said, you don't get over self-harm; you just move on from it, the way you would an addiction. This is just my opinion, but I see a lot of those "does anyone else do this" threads turning into lists mostly as people wanting to identify with one another. We're all struggling to come to terms with our own self-harm; there's no standard way of doing that, (and in much of popular culture talking openly about it is a bad idea) so we're kind of left to muddle through on our own the best we can. I guess most of my perspective on this stems merely from my own experiences. The biggest favor this site has done me is to prove beyond words and statistics that I am not a complete pariah.
Of course we're not professionals, and that is why I whole-heartedly encourage everyone to see their doctor and attempt to get some professional help. I also know that counselling does not work for everyone, but that shouldn't stop people trying. I think if people posted what it was they were looking for (emotional help, practical advice, hugs, etc) then it would help enormously in giving appropriate support.
I know that sometimes people do revel in their self-harm, but I don't think it is appropriate to do so on this site, which is largely (although not completely) recovery-based. I do not think it is okay for people to think what they are doing is normal or that they are part of some exclusive group because of what they do. Not saying you do, just that sometimes that is how it can be on SID.
Maybe it's because I'm not 'addicted' to self-harm that I have a different viewpoint to others. I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodi
"I'd rather not have my personality be aligned with my self-harm. Yes, it is a part of me, but it is not what makes me who I am. I do not associate my personality with my self-harm at all."
I'm sorry I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I don't consider self harming to be part of my- or others- personalities. I don't want to be defined by my self harm!
All I meant was that it makes others with self harm difficulties real rather than statistics.
Sorry, yes, I think I misunderstood. I get you now.
Bearing this discussion in mind, I went back onto the SID board and re-read some of the threads; I made a point of reading through the threads that have been discussed here, especially. I can see where you're coming from in feeling that there is sometimes a competitive feel. I still think that's mostly down to insecurity; like Jodi said, a desire to find commonality with people as individuals. I think it's a maladaptive desire to be acknowledged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One Who
I know that sometimes people do revel in their self-harm, but I don't think it is appropriate to do so on this site, which is largely (although not completely) recovery-based. I do not think it is okay for people to think what they are doing is normal or that they are part of some exclusive group because of what they do. Not saying you do, just that sometimes that is how it can be on SID.
I think I misconstrued you on this in my last post. I only meant that I think the site is, or could be, a useful tool for talking through these kinds of thoughts, away from the sometimes judgmental atmosphere of even the best friendship groups. Some self-harm thoughts are too difficult to quantify to someone who loves you, and is trying to support you. I've seen some supportive and empathetic threads started about struggling not to escalate or do something "really" bad. <-- I ask you to forgive me for that; it's all bad, obviously, but I'm talking in terms of degrees here, and the language won't support anything that fine, heh.
As far as it being "normal" or "okay" to self-harm as a coping mechanism, I think I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you. I think in order to really work on the causes of self-harm, and try to seriously stop it, it's necessary to understand and accept it. Self-harm, to me, is really just another ugly, dangerous habit, like drinking. There's nothing that special about it; it should be treated in the same way as quitting anything else. I think it's necessary to at least try to eliminate guilt about it, because feeling guilty about doing something also tends to foster resentment for the people who don't do it, and are trying to get you to stop. (General you, obviously.) Also, reducing guilt and shame tends to lend a clearer perspective.
I agree that self-harm is a horrible habit, but so are a lot of others. Just my two cents.
Last edited by Pierrot : 20-08-2010 at 06:06 PM.
Reason: to clarify
Bearing this discussion in mind, I went back onto the SID board and re-read some of the threads; I made a point of reading through the threads that have been discussed here, especially. I can see where you're coming from in feeling that there is sometimes a competitive feel. I still think that's mostly down to insecurity; like Jodi said, a desire to find commonality with people as individuals. I think it's a maladaptive desire to be acknowledged.
I think I misconstrued you on this in my last post. I only meant that I think the site is, or could be, a useful tool for talking through these kinds of thoughts, away from the sometimes judgmental atmosphere of even the best friendship groups. Some self-harm thoughts are too difficult to quantify to someone who loves you, and is trying to support you. I've seen some supportive and empathetic threads started about struggling not to escalate or do something "really" bad. <-- I ask you to forgive me for that; it's all bad, obviously, but I'm talking in terms of degrees here, and the language won't support anything that fine, heh.
As far as it being "normal" or "okay" to self-harm as a coping mechanism, I think I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you. I think in order to really work on the causes of self-harm, and try to seriously stop it, it's necessary to understand and accept it. Self-harm, to me, is really just another ugly, dangerous habit, like drinking. There's nothing that special about it; it should be treated in the same way as quitting anything else. I think it's necessary to at least try to eliminate guilt about it, because feeling guilty about doing something also tends to foster resentment for the people who don't do it, and are trying to get you to stop. (General you, obviously.) Also, reducing guilt and shame tends to lend a clearer perspective.
I agree that self-harm is a horrible habit, but so are a lot of others. Just my two cents.
I think, ultimately, we are saying the same things but from a different angle.
It all depends on the context of the thread. Competitive lists are not okay, but asking for support for something is perfectly fine. I dislike some responses that say something like scratching or bruising is fine as a 'safe' alternative to cutting. They are both self-harm, and should both be viewed and treated as such.
As to the point about fostering resentment, I have definitely noticed that. You only have to look at threads about parents' views, teachers, friends etc who may not be as empathetic as those here. However, and it's a big, huge however, replies to these threads which simply agree with the OP about how mean and nasty the person was really get my back up. It does not help for the poster to be encouraged in their response to someone reacting negatively to their self-harm.
It's good to see this being discussed in such depth and with such intelligence and it's nice that at least RYL is open enough to have this stuff discussed and out in the open.
It's a very tricky subject that involves very fine lines indeed.
Where RYL has always 'succeeded' over some other sites is that it has always been great at making people feel less alone. These discussions which you quote are generated by people seeking to gain connections with others, quantify what they do and stop the cycle of feeling hey are the only people in the world who feel the way they do.
There are many steps to recovery, and those steps are different for every person. Some gain a huge amount of positive from discovering they are far from unique on what hey struggle with, others much less so.
Swing too far the 'responsible' way, and the site acts as nothing but a mechanism for more shame, guilt and self hatred. The perfect line to take is to be a best friend who takes someone with all doors closed out of their shell, and scorn has no part in that. Parents, teachers, doctors etc all do enough of that for most members, and RYL is designed to be a refuge from that.
I completely agree that there are risks, and that going too far and allowing encouragement has massive dangers, but then so too does leaving people feeling alone. We try enormously hard to inhibit encouragement, tip sharing or negative posting through our moderation. I can't promise we get it right every single time with the millions of posts that are made on RYL, but know that we try our best.
RYL's mission is not to fix people with self harm, it is to increase peoples confidence in support, even in the worse circumstances. Many of the people coming to RYL are hardened harmers, failed by multiple other recovery methods and professionals, and many others are simply not ready or willing to stop.
Too clinical a site that constantly shuns people for their situations would not increase peoples confidence in support. Better is a plan to gain peoples trust, then lead them towards support, information, advice and the way forward.
RYL would never promise to be able to solve all elements of self harmers problems, and in no way removes to the need for any other coping or recovery mechanism. Instead it is here to ease those who have real troubles with gaining support and the idea of recovery towards it.
I think we can do a much better job still, and see many elements of the site that I feel let down just this point you speak of. Much of my work with v4 revolves getting this balance right for more people, more of the time, and i am confident it will.
I think again that there are two sides to it. On the one hand, there's the suggestion that it's competitive and/or glamourising and/or could give people ideas that they haven't considered before. On the other hand these are very stigmatised behaviours and sometimes you're desperate just to say to someone 'I'm doing this, I don't really know why but I feel like I'm the only person who does it'.
For me personally, I don't particularly like the idea of normalising self-harm for myself anymore. I don't generally go in the Self-Injury forum because it's not something I have a problem with anymore - I do it sometimes, maybe I will do it sometimes for the rest of my life, I don't know. But I think for me it comes to a point when I have read so much about self-harm and the things people do that I am not surprised by it anymore, I'm not shocked by it, it's too normal a part of life because I have read so much, and in 'real life' sometimes you see people's shock and concern and think 'Ok, actually it's not ok to be doing that...' (That applies to anything like this, not just the Self-Injury forum, though).
But that's just me, other people probably won't agree and I think it's good to have a balance. Self-harm, depression, mental health problems, etc, etc can be very lonely, and sometimes it's good to hear someone say you aren't alone, that they understand what you're going through. It's not something that many people can talk about in 'real life', and I guess for some people it's good to be able to have that release and to feel like they are being open and not hiding that huge secret part of themselves.
well i dont venture in there much but there was a thread last night where the op admitted they where glamourising, everyone complained and the op changed the first post, but the damage was still done to the other people the got triggered.
"Its not how long a star shines, what is remembered is the brightness of the light"
I've now gone through and seen what you're talking about - sorry, you're right. That does seem unhelpful.
But where do we decide what will be and what won't be helpful? I mean, it is helpful to know we're not alone - and I don't think that just being a member of the site shows us that. We need to know that our individual behaviours are not "weird". Obviously, they're not normal, as such, but we need to know that other people struggle with the things we struggle with. It's comforting, in a weird way, to know that other people do the things that we do and feel the things we do.
Sorry my wording is awful tonight, I've been doing my portfolio for uni all night.. My brian is turning to mush.
EDIT: I think I've proved myself in that, by putting Brian instead of Brain, aha.
You are a wonderful creation.
You know more than you think you know, just as you know less than you want to know.
There are ways of asking if you aren't alone without it turning into a competitive list. There is a difference between asking for support and just creating a thread so that everyone can list, for example, what words they cut into themselves and where. One of these is fine, the other is glamourising and bordering on pro.
But the thread that's mentioned earlier in this thread seemed to me that the OP did post it for support, and other people turned it into a list. Some replies were - don't do it, it's a bad idea, but it wasn't - hey everyone write down what words you've cut into yourself and where.
It was the way the other people replied. And even then, I don't think they were listing it in a competitive way - it had the risk of becoming competitive, yeah, but almost every post on that thread seemed to me like they were just letting the OP know that they weren't alone. If you have done this yourself, but don't have any advice to give, surely you'd still want to reply to the OP. I agree, some posts weren't helpful, but isn't there a risk of unhelpful posts in any thread? And a risk of any thread becoming competitive?
You are a wonderful creation.
You know more than you think you know, just as you know less than you want to know.
Yes, a few posts were offering support, but most were I have x, y and z carved into my a, b and c, which was excessive. And there was one saying that it offers more than just cutting, which to me was tip-sharing. It's not just the original post that needs to be taken into consideration, but the replies too.
The one that said that it gives something more than cutting was definitely glamorising it - but I don't think that all the ones with i have a, b and c on my x, y, and z were meant to be competitive - I think some people just need to be more cautious with the way they're writing. I still think they meant it as support, it just came across wrong. Maybe it was because after seeing the post, they replied without considering everyone that post could affect. Just automatically reply, as you would in a conversation. Does that make sense?
You are a wonderful creation.
You know more than you think you know, just as you know less than you want to know.
Who in conversation with anyone would say "oh yes, I have the word 'hate' carved into my thigh, 'fat' into my wrist, and 'bitch' onto my arm"? Or anything along those lines? Also, how does that provide support to the OP?
