I guess I just wonder what about the really 'feminine' men, and the really 'masculine' women. Gender in the pants sense is balls and boobs? But gender traits cover many other aspects? What I am trying to say is that gender traits have tendancies, but are not discrete to men or women. The more research being done, particularly on the brain, the more complex 'male' and 'female' traits become, in terms of who actually has them.
Last edited by MissAnonymous : 09-03-2013 at 12:31 AM.
Some of the issues brought up here reminds me that there are people who advocate delaying puberty in transgender children and teenagers. By delaying puberty, they would avoid taking on secondary sex characteristics and it would be easier to transition. If they "outgrow" the gender dysphoria then they could go through puberty later. I'm not advocating this, but it could prevent any so-called "advantage" that a transwoman might have due to having originally developed as a male.
In short, I don't know.
there are different weight classes i think, so she would be judged by her weight, nothing to do with gender. in wrestling males wrestle against females. they go by weight, at least thats how it was in highschool, and i don't see why it should be any different.
I live in my own little world, but it's ok, they know me there.
i give up
Jack, a fair point. But then is that not saying that anyone who takes anything synthetic for whatever reason can't compete? So people born with intersex conditions can't compete? Or people who need to take steroids for things like Asthma can't compete? Or anyone who takes any medication for anything can't compete? That's a bit ridiculous is it not?
No - I don't say everything synthetic is wrong. There is a huge difference between sex hormones and asthma medication. If I have a headache it doesn't make me less masculine. If I take an aspirin it doesn't make me more masculine. However if I took anabolic steroids my physical nature would alter pretty dramatically.
As for intersex that's a rare physical anomaly with an array of attribute presentation that would probably call for a specific determination. Some people aren't even called intersex until puberty. if people can participate fairly and without being a disruption I don't care if they are anomalous to some degree.
Some really tall basketball players have a pituitary condition. I wouldn't bar them from participation within the general categories. Now some people manifest polymelia - extra limbs. There are people with three and four legs. Would I let a guy with 4 legs play football goal lol? Now the situation would become very esoteric and stresses the bounds of the "standard and usual" as insurance companies say. At some point its not possible or rational to try and accommodate everyone and everything equitably. Most people are right handed. If all things had to be manufactured so that left handed people were accommodated equally there would be cost and design problems introduced unreasonably. There is such a thing as the "general well being" and things can deviate enough from that so it doesn't exist anymore and there is general un-wellbeing
Or people who need to take steroids for things like Asthma can't compete? Or anyone who takes any medication for anything can't compete? That's a bit ridiculous is it not?
Completely off the point, but in many cases, no they wouldn't be competing if they cannot get a hold of approved medicine. Anti-doping rules can be really strict and prohibit someone from competing simply because they have taken some cough/cold medicine which contains prohibited ingredients.
I think she should be able to play as a woman, because she is a woman. Even if she was born male, there's so much variation in hormone levels in cisgender men and women that it can't make that much difference. For example, lower but still 'normal' levels of testosterone in men can be lower than the higher but still 'normal' levels in women, even though it's typically seen as a 'male' hormone. If a low-testosterone cis man decided to compete in athletics, would people say 'No, he can't! His hormone levels say he must compete in the women's events because of his testosterone level!'? Of course not. This athlete is a woman, therefore should be able to compete as a woman. 'Nuff said.
I think synthetic was the wrong word there.
Then how can you say that one person can't compete because they are trans* but that another person can compete despite having exactly the same hormone levels as afore mentioned trans* person?
Just seems a bit discriminatory.
Again, it's an equality issue, not a sporting issue.
The world is just illusion always trying to change me.
You will find wonder wherever you can, and spread joy whenever you are able.
I felt emotions of gentleness and pleasure, that had long appeared dead, divide within me. - Frankenstein.
You equate identify with chemistry and I don't. I don't think giving a woman male hormones makes her a man and vice versa. It just makes her a woman on male hormones. Bones, brain, glands, genes, hormones etc - many things stay male. Men think and feel differently in general. Their psychology is different and a few supplements doesn't really change that because two many things go into it. Physically woman are more nurturers and men are more aggressive (you don't see any woman dictators). You can pick any woman in the world, and put her on male hormones and and place her in the NFL - she will get plastered. In non contact sports things could be different because woman have some advantages at endurance sports.
Back in the 70's there was a famous case of a Canadian man - David Reimer - who had his penis damaged at birth in a botched circumcision. The family and doctors decided to raise him as a girl. This was the beginning of the sex as chemistry theory. As time went on David knew he wasn't a girl despite years of being brought up as one. He eventually stopped living as a girl.
No I don't. I get the whole brain thing as well. The fact is, there are loads of cis women with males brains and cis men with female brains. The same for trans* people. Not all cis women are nuturers, like not all cis males are more aggressive.
No two people are the same wether due to genetics or nature.
That's kinda different and doesn't really prove anything because gender is in your head so if he had always felt he was male, chances are he would stay male. Ergo, that supports the theory than you don't need a penis to be a man.
The world is just illusion always trying to change me.
You will find wonder wherever you can, and spread joy whenever you are able.
I felt emotions of gentleness and pleasure, that had long appeared dead, divide within me. - Frankenstein.
By brain differences I mean physical differences. Men's brains are bigger and wired differently (more neurons while women have more connections between their neurons). Men think with gray matter while women think with white matter.
All the physical stuff aside, I've never disputed that people can have an identity conflict. I don't dismiss men who say they feel like they are women and vice versa. To me its telling that a woman can feel masculine well before any male chemistry is introduced.
It also seems contradictory to me that some people will say "there is no fixed gender" - yet also claim that someone has "the wrong gender". If nothing is fixed how can anything be wrong? How could a man be stuck in a woman's body if being a man and a woman are artificial constructs? Add that to the fact that a person can have the sense of conflict even before any chemistry is introduced and it seems to me the nature of the problem can't be addressed by chemistry because it wasn't initiated by chemistry.
It also seems to me that if people can deny genetics with regards to sex then why not race? I am a white male but it seems I can claim to be not only a female within but I could say I am a black female. There's no difference really.
With regard to gender I think the real issue for a lot of people traces back to imprinting. Anyone who raises animals knows that if they want to raise a wild animal as a domesticated animal it must be removed from its mother seconds after birth before its imprinted. Its also known that if a baby monkey is taken away from its mum and placed with a family of ducks it will be imprinted with the ducks and try to act like one. Zoologist Konrad Lorenz was famous for having ducks and geese getting imprinted by him and bonding with hims as their mum. Given choice between going back to a real duck mum they stayed with him.
What I am saying is people can have their identity altered in substantial ways. A man who says he feels like he is a woman can have a real conflict. However where he might be inclined to see his actual form as "wrong" or a kind of disease that needs fixing surgically and chemically I would say the acquired identity is more the issue. If the man still the wants hormones and surgery then thats fine with me. Where I see it getting out of hand is in situations like forcing bathrooms to be open to whoever says they belong there. That will lead to abuses and a backlash which is already brewing.
I am very much of the opinion that gender is a sliding scale of both how you physically identify and how you mentally identify.
It's part of the whole sex is between your legs and gender is in your head thing there as well. Like a cis guy can be born without a penis due to a birth defect or something and the same for a cis woman. It just doesn't really happen much/isn't very well documented.
Again with the bathroom thing, people already get abused no matter if they use the bathroom that corresponds with their birth sex. Trans* women using mens bathrooms get killed. Also, alot of people that do identify as trans* would rather suck it up and use the bathroom of the sex/gender (two different things) that they identify with and risk getting killed because it doesn't make them feel really horrible using the one for their assigned sex. It's a whole other debate but yeah.
I don't get your point of how imprinting can effect gender. Can you please expand on this because it sounds like an interesting opinion.
The world is just illusion always trying to change me.
You will find wonder wherever you can, and spread joy whenever you are able.
I felt emotions of gentleness and pleasure, that had long appeared dead, divide within me. - Frankenstein.
