This thread is a bit diffiult to reply to when some people are asking when it's coming and then why do we need it anyway. It almost sounds as though it's becoming a place for people to start a little bit of Harley bashing/let's point out the bad things, thread. I do think that people should consider what they're saying before posting personal things like "plus a person with admin access needs to be healthy enough to work on RYL."
So that aside, in response to Chelsea's post... as someone mentioned I believe the code only came out this Summer... and Harley then had an accident, which he is no doubt still recovering from. So now there is code and when he's better, I guess it will be as soon as he can - not forgetting that he is a person who does all this voluntarily and gives time / thought to this site that would be worth a *lot* of money.
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No improvements can be made without Harley around, and a lot of people that know their interwebz would expect the webmaster of a site like this to at least be active occasionally.
What improvements are you looking for?
Chloe
We don't get given patience but the opportunity to be patient.
Courage isn't handed to us, but we are given opportunities to be courageous.
Chloe, whilst I respect what you're saying, are you actually suggesting that that backlog of things needing to be done to RYL have only occurred in the last few weeks since Harley's accident?
I don't deny that he needs a rest right now - but this is hardly a new issue. And, fundamentally, RYL cannot pretend to be a professional site (with a shop, fundraising and supporters) when it hasn't got a professional leader. It's as simple as that; a professional site needs some form of ability to change basic things like the rules page, and I don't understand how else Harley expects it to function?
I'm bitching more than I intended to. It's pent-up frustration I think. Sorry guys.
Last edited by Dreaming. : 11-09-2010 at 06:50 AM.
I agree its been going on so long its ridiculous. I realise Harley has been ill but there are lots of things that need doing which have needed doing for ages, not to mention v4. It just seems like there is always some excuse.
Christ if I was Harley and saw this thread I'd be fuming, and thinking how ungrateful some members are being.
The poor blokes just had a pretty bad accident that he's in the process of recovering from! He hardly planned it so could hardly take the measures to put someone else in place. He's also making V4 to make the site better for us, so while I know its taking a long time to come out, why dont the members who are moaning learn some patience for something that he doesnt actually have to do for us?
Also, as others have said, he's not getting paid to do this, hes spent alot of time making RYL into what it is which he never had to do.
/Rant over.
Feel free to pick this apart now.
Ah, and everything Morrigan said too =P
We’ve got obsessions
I want to erase every nasty thought that bugs me every day of every week
We’ve got obsessions
You never tell me what it is that makes you strong and what it is that makes you weak.
Hey Jo. I'm not suggesting that the backlog of things needing to be done has only occurred in last few weeks. However, I would suggest that a lot of the modifications that are planned were for V4, which was impossible before 8 weeks ago and then you know the rest.
I also think that there is a time, place and correct way to be bring these things up. I'm sure H will say that he's used to these type of comments (which is sad in itself, no?!) but in terms of bitching - we get frustrated about things and that's fair enough, but I would say that Irene has addressed the reasons why it could be deemed unfair and ungrateful.
It is worth noting, that as Head Supporter I would say the team are pretty autonomous. We have technical issues that inhibit LH working as well as we'd like - absolutely - there are bells and whistles that would be great BUT we actually work alright when Harley isn't around - we don't **need** him there. I'd go so far as to say that we're professional and productive when he isn't around - the team work just as hard regarless and it doesn't effect the levels of support. I appreciate that doesn't mean it's the same for every team, but hopefully gives you an insight to the Supporters at least.
And to echo boats "Christ if I was Harley and saw this thread I'd be fuming", I think if any of us saw a thread like this about ourselves we would be hurt - hell, it'd probably be removed for flaming. Worth thinking about when posting maybe.
Chloe
We don't get given patience but the opportunity to be patient.
Courage isn't handed to us, but we are given opportunities to be courageous.
It's not bitching about Harley, though. It's raising very valid points about the absence of a webmaster, which is pretty important for any site the size of RYL. And if you cannot be around, make sure that there are enough people who can carry on doing the most of the roles you do. It's a very, very basic leadership. It's not as if we're sitting here saying 'oh, Harley is so ****, I can't believe he'd do that! What a bastard" - it's raising genuine issues about a genuine problem that's been going on for far too long.
I don't think that anybody suggested, by the way, that Harley should put the website above his own health; that's an absurd implication. What should have happened years ago, though, is that there's some sort of delegation of power, so that if Harley does become inactive the site can still continue ticking over as normal. It doesn't have to be a complete delegation of power, but just enough to be able to make basic changes to the site; to the rules, for example (I'm bringing that one back up because that's stupidly important and it's also completely reliant on Harley being around and active to change them) - plus that would also take a lot of the pressure from Harley. I think that would make the world of difference for the site, but it's not happening and it hasn't happened the last six billion times that it's been asked - but I think his accident pretty much exemplifies why delegation of power is so damn important.
It's just the same problems that have been arising for years.
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Originally Posted by Chloe
I also think that there is a time, place and correct way to be bring these things up.
How? How can these be brought up in any other way that hasn't already been addressed - I know that there've been PMs sent, threads made (in private and in public) emails sent, I think even somebody's mentioned this face to face, for the last quite a few years, and it hasn't been addressed yet.
And I don't see how it's a bad thing that Harley being used to a recurring complaint that's a genuine issue for a number of members and teams on the site. If anything, it shows poor leadership for these problems having not been addressed yet.
I don't expect Harley to be super-human. I don't expect him to put this site before anything else, I don't expect him to work day and night for this or even all day for this, I don't even expect him to be a leader - but I do think that basic issues need to be addressed, and if Harley can't do them there should be some sort of flowchart of power so they actually do get done. Simple things like that would also address how much time H actually needs to put into the site, and would allow him to have a life too.
I'd just like to add that I'm not bitching about Harley's accident. I'm just kinda curious as to why we need v4... like, security issues, for example. Have they caused an actual problem that needs resolving soon? Are we not just making more work for the poor guy?
We do have a delegation of power, it only falls short in a few places and one of those is unfortunately the rules pages. But the site is still ticking over, is it not?
I don't know why we need v4; it's Harley's idea so it's not us creating more work rather than him. And I think the reasoning is because it's going to improve the site and he ultimately wants it to be the best it can be. For us.
And if you cannot be around, make sure that there are enough people who can carry on doing the most of the roles you do. It's a very, very basic leadership.
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and if Harley can't do them there should be some sort of flowchart of power so they actually do get done.
But there are Jo, so I'm not sure what it is that you're finding missing?! And I think some of the things you've said in that are truely not very nice, I don't even want to reply to them.
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How? How can these be brought up in any other way that hasn't already been addressed - I know that there've been PMs sent, threads made (in private and in public) emails sent, I think even somebody's mentioned this face to face, for the last quite a few years, and it hasn't been addressed yet.
So what do you feel will be any different about this method apart from causing more wide spread upset?
The question was really about v4 and there were two issues:
1 - the code only just came out
2 - why? As Aimee said "I think the reasoning is because it's going to improve the site and he ultimately wants it to be the best it can be. For us."
Chloe
We don't get given patience but the opportunity to be patient.
Courage isn't handed to us, but we are given opportunities to be courageous.
I don't know if it's just because I'm less easily offended than most, but I don't think I have actually been horrid in anything that I've said? I would appreciate it if you could highlight where I have been, just because I've re-read over what I've said a few times now and I'm still pretty clueless. I have no negative feeling towards Harley at all, it's the lack of a webmaster on a forum that's trying to grow and be professional (and asking for fundraising, fffs) that I find frustrating.
Actually, I would also like to pick up on another thing you said before:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe
And to echo boats "Christ if I was Harley and saw this thread I'd be fuming", I think if any of us saw a thread like this about ourselves we would be hurt - hell, it'd probably be removed for flaming. Worth thinking about when posting maybe.
I don't think any of this thread is actually personally attacking Harley himself. I don't think there's actually been anything negative said about him as a person, and absolutely no deprecatory comments about his personality - what is being talked about is the lack of a leader, and the frustration that causes. This is, I guess, why I really don't understand why people are saying that we're all bitching about Harley - we're not, at least, I'm not - it's not flaming him as a person, it's complaining about issues on the site.
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Originally Posted by Chloe
So what do you feel will be any different about this method apart from causing more wide spread upset?
I don't know if it's actually causing any wide-spread upset; people are posting about what they're feeling, and it's about tension that's been an underlying current on the site for so long, it's not going to cause any new anguish. And I don't know how this would be different from any other time - I don't even think it will be, it's all falling on deaf ears. But I don't think we should stop talking about it and give up, either.
What would be fantastically useful would be a tech side. I know of quite a few members who've volunteered themselves, and there has been a tech team in the past - but people who are able to code, to change basic technical things on the forum (obvs without the power to delete the site or anything :P).
I don't know if it's just 'cause being in the CT I see a lot of ideas that seem to fall down because Harley isn't around, but there are a number of things that are needing to be done that just can't be.
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"I think the reasoning is because it's going to improve the site and he ultimately wants it to be the best it can be. For us."
I completely understand and respect that - but I think that by looking too big, you lose sight of the small things that need doing. And that's all that I think has happened.
Last edited by Dreaming. : 11-09-2010 at 02:35 PM.
I completely understand and respect that - but I think that by looking too big, you lose sight of the small things that need doing. And that's all that I think has happened.
I'm pretty sure it's a case of thinking bigger will make the smaller things much easier and therefore more able to reach out to people looking for help. But I think Harley is probably going to be the best person to answer that one.
Chloe
We don't get given patience but the opportunity to be patient.
Courage isn't handed to us, but we are given opportunities to be courageous.
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