So you're saying it's natural for blacked to be slaves?
No, the complete opposite.
They're saying that a while ago, the majority of black people in Western society were slaves - so it was normal in that era for blacks to be slaves. However, it doesn't mean it's the natural way.
So the same argument applies - just because a while ago it was normal for most women were the stay at home mothers/nurturers, doesn't mean it has to be the natural way.
Get it now?
Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.
In fairness, whilst I disagree that women should be the "homemakers". I do agree that women are geared towards more of the child rearing. This is because from an evolution point of view women can be 100% sure that any child they give birth to is theirs. Biologically, even though in a monogamous relationship the man can be fairly sure a child is his, evolutionarily there isn't as much surety, so he invests slightly less in child care.
It is not a question of majority. Look when a man gives birth then it would be natural for a man to stay at home while a mother works. It's not like we are birds and a male can sit on the egg while the female goes off to hunt. Ok some men are better at it then overs but for the most of us it doesn't come easy. So naturally we go out and male sure our family has everything they need.
And by the way stop being so god damn racist whites and Asian have been slaves as well and through out history it was more common for white people to be slaves. Blacks have had white slaves.
To whom I may offend,
hahahahaha
Yours faithfully the monkeys arse
And it is more then natural for women to stay at home looking after children and the home. That is not to say it is the way it has to be.
Boats are you suggesting men give birth?
I'm suggesting exactly that, because my post so clearly led towards that view.
Since your twisting everything to be awkward, I'll make that clear, I'm being sarcastic.
Its a shame you can't debate this like an adult.
We’ve got obsessions
I want to erase every nasty thought that bugs me every day of every week
We’ve got obsessions
You never tell me what it is that makes you strong and what it is that makes you weak.
This debate seems to have gone in several circles. But as a last thought from me, it still seems logical that women being naturally able to breast-feed are the most suitable to nurture (a great proportion of the world does not have access to or cannot afford artificial baby foods such as SMA or equivalent). But I have never in this debate tried to impose nurturing on women - I've simply said it seems more natural. Women in the western world are surely fortunate to often have more choice than those elsewhere.
As to slavery (which I didn't bring up) I remember when I first went out to Oman the old Sultan (Qabooses' father) had a household of black african slaves. They were known in Arabic as "khaadim" and to them it was a profession that provided for them. They certainly didn't want to go back to Africa. And I've never suggested that because many slaves were black - mainly in the distant past - that all blacks should ergo be slaves.
I cannot remember having had so many words put into my mouth!
Tony (who has actually nurtured a bit in his time, tho' breast-feeding was beyond me!)
Tony you should have got one of those capillary feeding systems lol - this thread is now way off topic, and whilst we've so far managed to keep it fairly civilized and non-flammatory, it is going in circles and my opinion is it should be left to die now, the thread, not women/men/animals.
Mand, South Wales, Full-time working, single mother to 2 scarily independent girls.
I AM A PROUD PLUMERIA SISTER
It is also a shame that you have to resort to calling my response childish to further your debate. Also if this is a debate I think maybe it should be moved.
One more thing umm **** you don't resort to personal attacks just because you are over sensitive. That just makes me not want to be friends.
To whom I may offend,
hahahahaha
Yours faithfully the monkeys arse
It is also a shame that you have to resort to calling my response childish to further your debate. Also if this is a debate I think maybe it should be moved.
One more thing umm **** you don't resort to personal attacks just because you are over sensitive. That just makes me not want to be friends.
Make ridiculous points and I will treat you ridiculously. Make logical points and I'll chat away.
And you mean we're not going to be besties? I'm not sure I can handle the heartache.
We’ve got obsessions
I want to erase every nasty thought that bugs me every day of every week
We’ve got obsessions
You never tell me what it is that makes you strong and what it is that makes you weak.
See, to me this thread is utterly frustrating because it is going in circles, but primarily because there seems to lack any actual evidence of the arguments being used in this thread. So we get stuck on "well, I think this" "what is your logic?" "I think this" "but you haven't provided any evidence" "I think this", ARGH.
I don't feel any words were put in your mouth Tony, particularly by me - if you can find such an example, I would gladly retract it. Rather, I was simply extending the very logic you used as evidential proof that women are naturally homemakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abintra
And by the way stop being so god damn racist whites and Asian have been slaves as well and through out history it was more common for white people to be slaves. Blacks have had white slaves.
Seriously? Ok then. I can say to you, stop being so god damn sexist. For most of history women have also worked and men have shared caring of the children. Women have gone to work while men have stayed at home too. See? It works that way too.
Don't you dare call me racist when you know nothing about me. And also, don't use logical reasoning if you don't want that logic to be extended beyond your own argument.
BUT. It's fine. Clearly everybody here knows my opinion and I've expressed it a number of different ways, so if people haven't yet grasped it, it's not worth going on about.
For the record, Birds&Boats, you're ace.
Last edited by Dreaming. : 29-12-2012 at 10:38 AM.
Yes, no one else can give birth to the child other than a female, but that's only for nine months prior to birth, it's care after the birth can be done by anyone regardless of sex.
If anyone mentions breastfeeding, then of course there are other options, but the role of primary care giver to an infant can be successfully done by whatever sex.
Men are better at being providers, and that women are the better nurturers. And that is the way that nature intended!
Woman are better at nurturers. I don't know that men are better at being providers. What do they have to offer that woman can't do?
Haven't read the entire thread, but what Abintra said (#123) about male/female roles makes sense to me. Woman tend to be touchy-feely, caring and kind, and men tend to be cold, logical and strong. It sound harsh, but it's more than just society's gender definitions. Woman go into teaching, nursing, child-minding. Men go into medicine, building, banking. When people cross these boundaries (male primary teacher, female builder) people are suspicious and assume there must be something wrong.
It doesn't matter where you come from; it matters where you go.
No-one gets remembered for the things they didn't do.
We won't all be here this time next year,
so while you can take a picture of us.
We're definitely going to hell,
but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Demons to some - in some countries formula is not an option, if the powder can be sourced, then the water is so dirty it will kill, in this instance the women are the only ones who can feed their children.
Mand, South Wales, Full-time working, single mother to 2 scarily independent girls.
I AM A PROUD PLUMERIA SISTER
It seems to me that people are being unduly harsh to tony!
Going way way back to the original point of the thread...yes it was sexist to post the ads in the ladies, but fact is, whether we like it or not, cleaners at this point in time are most likely to be female in most places, so it kind of makes sense.
Women and men ARE different. That doesn't mean that one is better or worse than another, but too often women fighting for equality get up in arms about genuine gender differences. There's no reason why gender roles have to be set in stone, but gender differences are recognised to exist.
Besides which the female throughout the VAST majority of the animal kingdom is the primary caregiver in cases where care is given. This is explained partly by paternity uncertainty as I hinted at above (males will invest more in parenting when paternity is more certain eg wolves where only one male breeds, male antelope that have many mates will not usually contribute to offspring care.)
And also because in terms of resources a female is investing more in each child as eggs are more costly (energetically) than sperm and are a limited resource, pregnancy requires a lot of investment again of energy and food resources, and then breast feeding saps even more, so a female has given much more in biological resources than the male (he may contribute monetary resources/territory etc in animals) so they are genetically, evolutionarily, biologically designed to make damn sure those resources haven't been wasted and their child/offspring survive. Hence women are nurturers.
Women are more prone to the "awww a baby/puppy/kitten" response than males because we are programmed to be nurturers. Of course men can be equally good, and of course humans are more complex than other animals in a lot of ways so there are exceptions, but the theory holds up overall. Working mothers often feel guilty about missing time with their kids, fathers seem to feel slightly less guilty. Obviously sometimes both parents have to work, some fathers may be forced to look after their kids because the mother died, or left, or it makes financial sense for the man to stay at home, but there are far more single mothers around than single fathers!
I am much more prone to gush over cute things and puppies than my girlfriend is. ._.
tu as tant de choses à dire,
mais le tout reste enfermer.
et quand tu ne sais plus quoi dire,
tu te mets à pleurer.
Mais ça ton publique le voit pas,
tu l'incites à rêver, pendant que toi tu le regarde...
Wow, this thread has covered a wealth of "gender-ground"! As a mere man I feel well and truly outnumbered on this site - but of course I would be (new question: why do more females SH than males? Because they're more sensitive? More vulnerable (but if so who is out doing the H/G bit?)
But surely men have a worthwhile role to play? We go fishing, shoot deer or grouse or geese or ducks and bring them back to warm the family hearth and to feed the families' bairns. What the hell more do you want?
Men deal with emotions by drinking or punching someone.
Women cry and stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley's Dad
But surely men have a worthwhile role to play? We go fishing, shoot deer or grouse or geese or ducks and bring them back to warm the family hearth and to feed the families' bairns. What the hell more do you want?
Tesco sell meat, it's all cool. :p
It doesn't matter where you come from; it matters where you go.
No-one gets remembered for the things they didn't do.
We won't all be here this time next year,
so while you can take a picture of us.
We're definitely going to hell,
but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Wow, this thread has covered a wealth of "gender-ground"! As a mere man I feel well and truly outnumbered on this site - but of course I would be (new question: why do more females SH than males? Because they're more sensitive? More vulnerable (but if so who is out doing the H/G bit?)
But surely men have a worthwhile role to play? We go fishing, shoot deer or grouse or geese or ducks and bring them back to warm the family hearth and to feed the families' bairns. What the hell more do you want?
Tony.
Am unsure why you would think anyone was implying that men didn't have a worthwhile role. I must have missed that bit; I thought people were just suggesting that there should be an aim for equality - men and women are both good at childrearing and having careers.
But surely men have a worthwhile role to play? We go fishing, shoot deer or grouse or geese or ducks and bring them back to warm the family hearth and to feed the families' bairns. What the hell more do you want?
Tony.
As a mere man, I don't feel outnumbered or ganged up on reading this thread at all. Maybe I'm not a real man or something.
Some of us men think fishing is boring, don't like the idea of shooting an animal and work regular jobs to support our families and put food on the table. I don't understand men who are all "woe is me, I'm a macho man and hunt and fish" when men in most parts of the world haven't been obligated to go out hunting and fishing to provide for their families in quite a long time. Surely it is different in smaller communities, but I grew up in a very rural town of less than 1300. My dad was an electrician/carpenter/auto mechanic. Hated hunting and dislike fishing. Worked over 40 hours a week and provided for the family. >.> Same as my mom who worked 40 hours a week and provided for us... couples in this day and age are trying to survive and make a nice life for themselves. Living is getting expensive. It would be a DREAM around here for a woman to be a housewife and be able to stay home with the kids all the time. It's VERY rare to see stay at home moms at all anymore. It's a lot less about which gender does what and a lot more about husband and wife doing everything they can. And as a side note, my gf says she would feel like a tool if she stayed at home while I worked. I was out of a job all summer and she had to take care of me and I hate every minute of it. So gender really doesn't make a difference anymore.
I realize this post is a jumbled mess of a paragraph but I've had a long day at work and probably need some sleep.
tu as tant de choses à dire,
mais le tout reste enfermer.
et quand tu ne sais plus quoi dire,
tu te mets à pleurer.
Mais ça ton publique le voit pas,
tu l'incites à rêver, pendant que toi tu le regarde...
I hope it happens within my lifetime that men and women achieve equality and neither sex has to be bound up in all of these silly preconceived notions that define who they have to be based upon their gender. People are people first, and men and women last.
Last edited by yourockmysocks : 30-12-2012 at 03:05 AM.
