I believe it was already brought up that crimes of this nature often time could have ended up a lot worse if the perpetrator chose to use something besides a firearm (ex. car, chemicals, fire, etc.). It's also been mentioned that the majority of gun related crimes, regardless of country, are done using illegally obtained firearms. In the US, the right to keep and bear arms is protected by the second amendment to the constitution. Its probably worth pointing out that the first 10 amendments to the constitution are known as the bill of rights, and were added pretty much around the time the constitution written so that it would be clear what rights citizens had. (sorry about that being kind of awkwardly worded). The second amendment is in there to, among other reasons, pretty much allow citizens to keep the government in check. Which, of course, is why it's grouped with amendments regarding freedom of speech and assembly, search and seizure, having a right to a fair trial and having troops quartered in your home. All of these amendments are there to help prevent the government from overstepping its bounds. Of course, they do it anyways, but the fact still stands that the right to own guns is a fairly large aspect of the US.
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."- Thomas Jefferson
Honorably discharged from the United States Marine Corps.
"Make it work." -Tim Gunn
I think what they should be looking at is how mentally ill people can get hold of guns, and potentially start saying that mentally ill people should not be allowed to own a gun.
How many innocent people die as a result of careless driving? Or alcohol-related violence?
Lots. Too many. They are all equally horrible and all should be dealt with. But this incident could be the potential for something to be done. Yes, all of the above should be dealt with but I guess it will happen one at a time. It's just awful that such a tragic incident(s) have to happen before something is done.
How can the light that burned so brightly
Suddenly burn so pale?
Lots. Too many. They are all equally horrible and all should be dealt with. But this incident could be the potential for something to be done. Yes, all of the above should be dealt with but I guess it will happen one at a time. It's just awful that such a tragic incident(s) have to happen before something is done.
There are laws against both careless driving and violence, but legislation alone isn't enough to stop things from happening. There needs to be much more than simply a legal statute drawn up by the government of the day. There would need to be a huge culture change, which doesn't happen overnight. It wasn't really that long ago that guns were legal in this country.
Last edited by The One Who : 16-12-2012 at 09:58 PM.
You can ban guns but you can't ban violence or ill mental health. I do feel as though mental health is an area where there isn't as much support/depth of support that people need, at least in the UK and that although we try not to do it, there's still an awful lot of stigma attached. As soon as something like this happens, the perpetrator is labeled as 'crazy' or 'mad' or something/someone else is blamed, there is no 'well, we could have done more'. I do agree, it is the people, not the guns.
You can't lose hope when it's hopeless.
You gotta hope more,
then put your fingers in your ears and go,
"Blah blah blah blah!"
The 'right to bear arms' was an amendment in itself. The second one, I believe.
Correct. The second amendment states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." It was put into place after the revolution as a way to insure that the county could never fall into tyranny because the people had the tools to protect themselves from the government.
This is a large part of the culture of the interior of the county. When you visit the USA you, most likely, did not venture from the urban and suburban areas. If you entered the nation's heartland you would come across a group of people who would do this if any part of the government would come to collect the firearms there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One Who
My understanding (and it probably varies from state-to-state) is that in the USA guns are registered to owners (although unregistered guns are rife), and these owners are vetted to an extent. There are laws regarding gun keeping as well.
In some states it it illegal for the state government to have a database of gun owners. Most other states only have lists of people who own hand guns. Shotguns and, non-automatic, rifles are mostly unregulated. NRA type groups like flashing a quote from Lenin when this topic comes up, "A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie." Many argue that lists would lead to people confiscating people's legal firearms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Accidentally Abstract
I think it's ridiculous to allow pretty much anyone to own a gun. It's no wonder there are so many gun crimes in the US imo.
No its not. My family owns several rifles and shotguns; all of them are for hunting or sport shooting. In my area it is common to have 10+ firearms in the house. Passing on firearms is a big deal in the culture of my, fairly rural, area. One of the biggest holidays of the year is the first day that you can hunt deer with a modern rifle. There are many reasons to own guns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrk
I think what they should be looking at is how mentally ill people can get hold of guns, and potentially start saying that mentally ill people should not be allowed to own a gun.
That is already in place but there are loopholes behind background checks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
You can ban guns but you can't ban violence or ill mental health. I do feel as though mental health is an area where there isn't as much support/depth of support that people need, at least in the UK and that although we try not to do it, there's still an awful lot of stigma attached. As soon as something like this happens, the perpetrator is labeled as 'crazy' or 'mad' or something/someone else is blamed, there is no 'well, we could have done more'. I do agree, it is the people, not the guns.
Exactly
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
~JRR Tolkien
I've been around the block once or twice and this isn't my first rodeo...
I dont blame gun ownership for what happened but I think that the ability to access guns so freely makes massacres like this that much easier and more likely to occur and I find that unsettling.
There are times to stay put, and what you want will come to you.
But there are times to go out into the world and find such a thing for yourself.
I aint no abacus but you can count on me.
This is a large part of the culture of the interior of the county.
That's something I think a lot of people don't understand. The majority of the people here are British. Gun ownership is a huge cultural difference between the US and the UK that I think is hard for people to comprehend from either side.
Hunting is a huge sport, as mentioned. Also, many people want to have guns to feel protected. I personally know how to use a gun and might someday if I have children consider keeping one in my home, well secured, to feel that I could protect them if need be. More kids die in the home from swimming pool accidents than gun ownership.
I don't think that the man who shot those children would have cared if having a gun was legal. People find a way to do things, when they really want to. After all, murder is also illegal.
I think it's a cultural thing.
Coming from NZ I have a different view to the UK - I shoot rifles and many of my family own rifles for hunting and/or farming purposes.
However, we don't have this problem. Shootings like this don't happen, whereas they seriously seem to happen in the US every couple of years.
Therefore, it must be something wrong with Americans that they have no respect for firearms and just think it's acceptable to go totally crazy and shoot a load of stangers just because they are upset.
They are obviously not mature enough to handle such easy access to firearms - therefore I think the law must change to take away the right to bear arms, since the general public cannot be trusted with it.
I know I'm going to be attacked for this generalisation, but you can't have one rule for one and one rule for others and this kind of thing just cannot keep happening.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.
I think it's a cultural thing.
Coming from NZ I have a different view to the UK - I shoot rifles and many of my family own rifles for hunting and/or farming purposes.
However, we don't have this problem. Shootings like this don't happen, whereas they seriously seem to happen in the US every couple of years.
Therefore, it must be something wrong with Americans that they have no respect for firearms and just think it's acceptable to go totally crazy and shoot a load of stangers just because they are upset.
They are obviously not mature enough to handle such easy access to firearms - therefore I think the law must change to take away the right to bear arms, since the general public cannot be trusted with it.
I know I'm going to be attacked for this generalisation, but you can't have one rule for one and one rule for others and this kind of thing just cannot keep happening.
WHOA. Hold on a minute. Most of the population is fine and totally okay with owning guns. The guns themselves are not the problem. Most people here who have lots of guns use them for hunting purposes.
What is the problem is the help available for mentally ill people. In NZ and the UK and Aus and Canada, if I'm not mistaken, they have universal health care. The US does not. This means that in any of those countries, if someone is ill, they can get help.
In the US, no matter how ill you are, oftentimes you go without help. Unless you are very, VERY lucky. This means that feelings and problems are allowed to fester. And, since it's far easier to get a gun than it is to get therapy, one might use a gun to solve their problem given that they have no option of getting help. None.
Yes, shootings are a problem. Yeah, guns are pretty easy to get. But the underlying problem is what causes these people to go out and shoot people. What would be a better solution is to solve the underlying problems. Why do people feel this is their only option? How can we give these people other options?
I dont blame gun ownership for what happened but I think that the ability to access guns so freely makes massacres like this that much easier and more likely to occur and I find that unsettling.
This is the point I was making I think. Would he have still been able to cause such damage if he didn't have access to the gun? No. That's not to say he wouldn't have found another way of killing dozens of innocent people, but at the same time, his ideologies may have developed because he had always had such easy access to guns.
Do not be dismayed by the brokenness of the world. All things can be mended. Not with time, as they say, but with intention. So go. Love intentionally, extravagantly, unconditionally. The broken world awaits in darkness for the light that is you.
In the US, no matter how ill you are, oftentimes you go without help. Unless you are very, VERY lucky. This means that feelings and problems are allowed to fester. And, since it's far easier to get a gun than it is to get therapy, one might use a gun to solve their problem given that they have no option of getting help. None.
Yes, shootings are a problem. Yeah, guns are pretty easy to get. But the underlying problem is what causes these people to go out and shoot people. What would be a better solution is to solve the underlying problems. Why do people feel this is their only option? How can we give these people other options?
Because I don't know how to quote more than once in one post. Just as a general question, do people think we can completely narrow these shootings (referring to previous incidents also) down to the mental health of the person? Obviously, the psychology of the person is a hugely important thing to try and unravel so we can build a bigger picture, and allow ourselves to try and understand what was going on. But, what of those who go off and randomly shoot innocent citizens, who haven't previously had any mental health problems? I completely agree that treatment for mental health is of ample importance, and if there's any way of finding out someone's plans before they happen, then of course it's extremely important we intervene how we can. But what if this wasn't planned as a result of trying to rectify a psychological issue? In other words, what about the murderers who don't get off under mitigated circumstances because they were deemed mentally well enough to be completely aware of what they were doing?
Just some thinking out loud.
Do not be dismayed by the brokenness of the world. All things can be mended. Not with time, as they say, but with intention. So go. Love intentionally, extravagantly, unconditionally. The broken world awaits in darkness for the light that is you.
Because I don't know how to quote more than once in one post. Just as a general question, do people think we can completely narrow these shootings (referring to previous incidents also) down to the mental health of the person? Obviously, the psychology of the person is a hugely important thing to try and unravel so we can build a bigger picture, and allow ourselves to try and understand what was going on. But, what of those who go off and randomly shoot innocent citizens, who haven't previously had any mental health problems?
Just some thinking out loud.
With most of the school shootings the kids have a history of therapy, meds, criminal activity etc. Many were also regarded as "bright". The Columbine shooters were smart kids - too smart for their own good in ways because they were able to make bombs before they even had drivers permit.
I will add most of these kids also come from financially secure backgrounds. They had health insurance and care. The shooter from this week had a mom getting 350,000 a year in alimony payments. She didn't even need to work.
She also knew she was "losing" the kid. He got bitter after a divorce. He was burning himself on the ankles. He stopped working and going to school. The media is now calling him a "goth" which is an oft misused term in this cases. It got misused in Columbine as well
Personally I think some kids are just kind of rotten and challenging circumstances bring it out. A problem with mental health people is that they all see people that make them nervous but there isn't much that can be done until they do something illegal.
An interesting book to read is a best seller called "Columbine" (2009 by Dave Cullen). It shows how one kid was just plain rotten and the other kid was just a tool.
Last edited by Isoverity : 18-12-2012 at 10:13 AM.
She had some badass guns. I just believe for more often than not, its the parents being involved in the kids life. Some of you hide cutting yourself. Some people hide plots of shooting sprees. Discipline I believe feeds into it, or the lack of it .
Guns are as available as anything. You don't keep your $hit locked up proper obviously someones going to get into them. What's done is done, should just be dropped. You can goto a gunstore if you're legit get a gun by the end of the day. Backround checks etc. You pass, you're armed. You uk peeps seem to think their as easy to get from a store as candy. Now if you outlaw them , you cannot defend yourself. And the guy who still is doing the shooting ca still get them. You're naive if you think otherwise. A few 20 dollar bills in any city , if for even that much you could obtain a stolen gun.
I was raised by columbine, so I'm kind of desensitized I guess.
Just picking up on this, I would like to know why it should be dropped?Sweeping everything under the carpet isnt going to help anything and Im sure if it was your child who was gunned down you wouldnt be saying 'whats done is done.'
There are times to stay put, and what you want will come to you.
But there are times to go out into the world and find such a thing for yourself.
I aint no abacus but you can count on me.
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