Couple raise gender neutral child

[Annapocalypse]

I never said he was a freak. You will notice I put it in quotation marks. But some people out there will make his life a misery because of it. Yes, it is the wrong of society and not the victim, but it doesn't stop the fact it will happen. Forcing gender neutrality is just the same as forcing stereotypes in my opinion. It should be choice.
I have always preferred to wear boys'/men's clothes and played with more boyish toys. My parents were made up because they could pass stuff from my older brother to me. But I still know I am a girl and always have done.
I stand by my statement that they are doing it for attention.

[The War Doctor]

Believe it or not, some men like being masculine, and some women like being feminine. F*cking crazy, I know. Clearly they only act and dress the way they do because F*CKING SOCIETY expects them to, not because they feel it's a part of who they are. Those poor, misguided conformists just need a lesson in the philosophy of "Like, Just Being... People, Y'know?"

Seriously though, I read the Sasha Cooper story today and it actually made me angry. Gender identity isn't an oppressive stereotype that we're expected to conform to, forced on us by peer pressure. It's part of who we are. Even the tiny minority of women who were born biologically male (or vice versa) identify with a gender, even if it wasn't the one they were born with. Surely if someone believes that their own gender is unimportant and decides to downplay it and become completely gender neutral, that should be their choice, not something forced on them from birth.

Stripping this kid of his gender identity is going to do a lot more psychological damage in the long run than being "expected to act like a boy by like, society, maaaan," whether he's bullied for it or not. I can't even imagine the confusion he's going to feel later in life, assuming he doesn't feel it already. Lucky my arse. In my opinion, what he's being put through isn't freedom from "crippling stereotypes," it's psychological (and possibly borderline sexual) abuse.

[The One Who]

Regarding the 'freak' comments, the child isn't a freak, but the parents are sort of making him into one, whether they think they are or not. The fact that this has got so much media attention is surely testament to that. Children are, well, horrible and they pick up on this sort of thing quickly and will use it as ammunition against him. Is it the fault of the other children that their parents have brought them up in a 'gendered' way?

I don't believe that the child has been truly given choice in what he does with himself. How many one year olds pick out their own clothes, and pick out their own toys? A five year old can and will, but a toddler doesn't. They wear and play with what they are given.

[sherlock holmes]

I agree that they will be doing more harm that good. They are stripping him of his male identity and giving him, essentially, a third gender in a society where typically there are only two. (My views on this differ, but I'm talking about at Sasha's age, at primary school, you typically see 'girls' and 'boys' not 'gender neutral' children).

If they wanted him to see that playing with more female stereotypical toys is acceptable then they could express that to him by talking about it and giving him a free choice in the toy shop. They should educate him about gender and gender identity in an appropriate way for his age and as he grows up explain to him about sexuality too, so he can find out for himself who he really is.

As I said before, because they consciously chose to raise him as a gender neutral child (referring to him as The Infant in public, seriously, I hate that) they will have forced him to wear masculine and feminine clothes before he could make the choice for himself. And now I expect he's learnt that mummy and daddy are very pleased when he chooses the fairy wings or the barbie dolls.

I can just see him growing up, resenting his parents and the way he was brought up, and taking on a really harsh, butch, aggressive male identity. I hope I'm wrong, I really do.

And yeah, I don't think he is a 'freak' (I think he is in an unfortunate situation because at that age, your parents dictate your life and choices) but he IS different. And different children get picked on. Kids are cruel.

[skyleaf]

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Originally Posted by Fifteen Dollar Eagle

Even the tiny minority of women who were born biologically male (or vice versa) identify with a gender, even if it wasn't the one they were born with. Surely if someone believes that their own gender is unimportant and decides to downplay it and become completely gender neutral, that should be their choice, not something forced on them from birth.

Actually, I'm a male transsexual, but I do not identify with the male or a female gender. My sex and my gender, like everyone else's, are separate things. There are actually a lot of people who do not fit into the gender binary.

It's silly to call this "forcing" when nearly every child is forced into one gender or the other - the fact that I was a "girl" was celebrated and forced on me since birth, but I knew my body should be different than it was. If you could force someone into a gender identity, transsexuals and transgender people would not exist.

[Koriandr]

Personally, I like the idea. Because I think that a lot of the things that define "gender" in American (or any!) society can be pretty damaging and demeaning...

In males, it creates a false sense of authority over women, in the sense that they are naturally more superior. But that is unfair to women. In women, it creates a sense of submission, that women are less superior to men.

I mean, I think raising a gender neutral child is great. Though, it may be breaking a lot of social taboos, it's really not the parents' methods that could possibly "mess up" the child later in life, it's the society that he grew up in. After all, "it takes a village to raise a child" am I right?

[Ninja Orange]

I can see how it could (possibly) have been a nice idea. Giving the child freedom to choose what he wants is great. Unfortunately, that's absolutely not what's happening here. The "gender neutrality" has been forced upon him. Some people have been mentioning the subtle cues, that the child sees the parents' delight when he plays with dolls. But from what I've read, my impression is that it goes further than his own choices or these subtle cues. When the kid started school this year, the parents were forced to reveal his sex, but it was decided by the parents that he would wear boys' trousers and a girls' blouse. I didn't get an impression from the article that it was Sasha's choice to wear the blouse. I imagine that if he's not feeling embarrassed about it now, he will be one the other kids start picking on him, or even talking about the fact that he's wearing girls' clothes, because it wasn't his choice to do so. I feel sorry for the kid.

[[Purple_Rain]]

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I have always preferred to wear boys'/men's clothes and played with more boyish toys. My parents were made up because they could pass stuff from my older brother to me. But I still know I am a girl and always have done

How is your parents givin gyou your brother toys any different to this set of parents giving this kid 'girls' toys?

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Gender identity isn't an oppressive stereotype that we're expected to conform to, forced on us by peer pressure. It's part of who we are. Even the tiny minority of women who were born biologically male (or vice versa) identify with a gender, even if it wasn't the one they were born with. Surely if someone believes that their own gender is unimportant and decides to downplay it and become completely gender neutral, that should be their choice, not something forced on them from birth.

Stripping this kid of his gender identity is going to do a lot more psychological damage in the long run than being "expected to act like a boy by like, society, maaaan," whether he's bullied for it or not. I can't even imagine the confusion he's going to feel later in life, assuming he doesn't feel it already. Lucky my arse. In my opinion, what he's being put through isn't freedom from "crippling stereotypes," it's psychological (and possibly borderline sexual) abuse.

I disagree. Well I think I do, it depends on your definition of gender identity. If gender identity stops at 'your sex is male/female' then sure, that is something we're born with. However, gender is something different. There are people who identify as gender nuteural. Or Androgenous. Or just somewhere inbetween the two. And gender identity in the sense of what beign male/female means is forced on us at birth. You're a girl therefore you like pink and dolls and I will focus on yoru looks when i compliment you. You're a boy so I will give you cars and focus on your strength.

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I don't believe that the child has been truly given choice in what he does with himself. How many one year olds pick out their own clothes, and pick out their own toys? A five year old can and will, but a toddler doesn't. They wear and play with what they are given.

I think this is a very good point and one I had not thought of before. Unless (which is quite possible) the boy was dressed in gender nutural clothes untill he was old enough to decide for himself what he wanted.

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They are stripping him of his male identity and giving him, essentially, a third gender in a society where typically there are only two

No no no no. I'm not just picking on you sarah, everyone should try and look at the article for what it is. The boy KNOWS he's a boy. That is not 'stripping him of his male identity'. The kid knows he is male. He knows. What they are doing, is stopping oher people/wider society allowing the boy's gender to influence how they treat thim. Hense why they called him 'the infant' in public (I admit that does sound a bit clinical, i would have gone with the baby/toddler/child).

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they will have forced him to wear masculine and feminine clothes before he could make the choice for himself

You don't know that, so don't state it as fact.

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If they wanted him to see that playing with more female stereotypical toys is acceptable then they could express that to him by talking about it and giving him a free choice in the toy shop

How is that any different to what they have done?

[[Purple_Rain]]

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They are keen to highlight the issue publicly and get other parents talking about it.

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At school, Sasha sometimes wears a ruched-sleeved and scalloped-collared shirt from the girl’s uniform list.

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said Sasha is aware he is a boy and has been allowed to grow up taking an interest in whatever he wants. ‘If Sasha wants to dress up in girls’ clothes then so be it,’ Mr Cooper said. ‘But we’re not forcing it.
‘The girl’s clothes and fancy dress are for fun at home. We don’t make Sasha go out in girl’s clothes.’

The 'gender neutral' from the title of the first artcile is a quote from a psychologist, not the parents. The below is a quote from the second article.

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It's a rum world when parents Beck Laxton and Kieran Cooper are regarded as crazy for adopting an approach to raising a child that is not, as Dr Daragh McDermott, a psychology lecturer, says "gender-neutral" but is stripped of stereotypes

[[Purple_Rain]]

And for those who are still arguing the raising the kid to be bullied case; so do you thin kids who need glasses should go without, or should be made to wear contacts? later on when the kid needs braces, they should be forbidden? ginger kids should have their hair dyed? kids who dont like sport shoul dbe forced into it so as to be 'popular'? kids who are inteligent should be taught to act stupid so as to fit in? what about boys who's parents have embraced gender sterotypes, but the kid still likes pink. Should mum and dad verbally chastise him for his own good, to stop him beign bullied?

...where do you draw the line? if you're going to try and stop bullying by making everyone fit in, where do you draw the line? because people will always stand out. There will always be something some one can pick on you for.

[Buttons.]

Purple rain *hats off*

[Sigma]

I agree with Purple Rain. plus - 'forcing' a toddler to wears girls/boys clothes?! Who decides that this style or colour is for girls or boys? A century ago pink was seen as a boys colour (a warm colour because boys are strong and active) and blue was a girls colour (purity, like the Virgin Mary often being depicted in blue). Go back a century before that and all children wore dresses up to a certain age.

And it is socially acceptable (up to a point) for a girl to be a 'tomboy' - I was, and could wear trousers & climb trees without any hassle. My brother's interest in playing with dolls and wearing skirts was definitely discouraged. Yes, it would get him bullied - but why do so many people feel the need to bully someone who is different? Why can soldiers wear skirts on parade (in scottish regiments) without having a sudden crisis of masculinity, but for a boy to wear a skirt threaten his entire identity and Society As We Know It?

[Aemornion]

I'm confused as to why I put what I did because I don't think it's true. I meant to say neutralizing gender is probably as damaging as enforcing one gender or the other. People should have freedom to identify however they wish, as long as it's practically possible to do so.

[skyleaf]

........nevermind.

[sherlock holmes]

I still stand by what I said.

I don't know if he DOES know that he is male, or if he has a real sense of what being male means, because they raised him as gender neutral.

What they have done is raised him in such a way that this "third" gender was forced on him from birth. He doesn't know what it's like to be "male" because that hasn't been an option for him. That is vastly different from raising him male and when he expresses his own preference for toys and clothes, allowing him to wear and play with what he wants without pushing him in one direction or another.

[Annapocalypse]

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Purple_Rain]

How is your parents givin gyou your brother toys any different to this set of parents giving this kid 'girls' toys?

Because it was MY choice, not theirs. I expressed interest in these things, so they let me do what I want.
I'm all for not stereotyping, but I think gender is an important part of who we are and trying to make your child not have one is going to cause as many problems as it will solve.

[[Purple_Rain]]

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Because it was MY choice, not theirs. I expressed interest in these things, so they let me do what I want.
I'm all for not stereotyping, but I think gender is an important part of who we are and trying to make your child not have one is going to cause as many problems as it will solve.<!-- / message -->

But this kid wanting girls toys is his choice, too? So again, how is it different? or is it just becuase it's more socially acceptible for girls to be tomboys than it is for boys to be tomgirls?

Also

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I still stand by what I said.

I don't know if he DOES know that he is male, or if he has a real sense of what being male means, because they raised him as gender neutral.

What they have done is raised him in such a way that this "third" gender was forced on him from birth. He doesn't know what it's like to be "male" because that hasn't been an option for him. That is vastly different from raising him male and when he expresses his own preference for toys and clothes, allowing him to wear and play with what he wants without pushing him in one direction or another.
<!-- / message -->

So what does 'being male' mean then? does it mean that he's going to grow up to be a big strong boy who doesnt show emotions?

They have no raised him as gender neutral. The kid knows he is a boy. They have not raised him to be gender neutral - they have simply allowed him to not be confined by gender sterotyping and only be allowed to play with boys things/wear boys things.

He does know what it's like to be male because he is male. Playing with 'girls' things and wearing 'girls' clothes does not change the fact he is male. It just means he has a wider choice of things to play with an wear.

You say 'I don't know if he does know he's male' and yet you claim to 'know' they are raising him as a third gender/gender neutral. You can't 'know' that, you do not know the parents. You are basing it on the new article. Which, if you read it properly, clearly states he knows he is a boy, and shows you that the parents never say they are raising him to be gender neutral, someone external from the family said it. Someone who in all probability, like you, and me, and everyone else in this thread, doesn't know the family.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokoloshe

I agree with Purple Rain. plus - 'forcing' a toddler to wears girls/boys clothes?! Who decides that this style or colour is for girls or boys? A century ago pink was seen as a boys colour (a warm colour because boys are strong and active) and blue was a girls colour (purity, like the Virgin Mary often being depicted in blue). Go back a century before that and all children wore dresses up to a certain age.

And it is socially acceptable (up to a point) for a girl to be a 'tomboy' - I was, and could wear trousers & climb trees without any hassle. My brother's interest in playing with dolls and wearing skirts was definitely discouraged. Yes, it would get him bullied - but why do so many people feel the need to bully someone who is different? Why can soldiers wear skirts on parade (in scottish regiments) without having a sudden crisis of masculinity, but for a boy to wear a skirt threaten his entire identity and Society As We Know It?

*takes hat off*
very well constructed argument here. Well done :)



The ignorance in this thread is astounding.

[Annapocalypse]

And just because I made different choices, they didn't suddenly decide I was genderless and insist on referring to me as "it". That's how it's different. We give our pets sex/gender-specific pronouns, why shouldn't we give them to our kids?

[[Purple_Rain]]

They haven't decided the kid is genderless. He knows he's a boy. they refer to him as the infant to stop other people gender sterotyping him. Not to stop him having a gender. There is a massive difference.

We also take our pets on walks with a leash, put them down when they get very ill, pick up their crap in plastic bags when they **** on public footpaths and neuter them. I have no idea what benfit you thougth comparing children to pets would bring to the argument. Though as a side, we do not expect girl pets and boy pets to like certain things or act in certain ways, the same way we do with humans. So that arguemnt ahs yet another flaw in it.

[Annapocalypse]

Yes, but referring to someone as "he" or "she" does not equal stereotyping. Not everyone makes assumptions based on people's gender, in fact, from my experience, I would say most don't. It sounds like the parents just have a "holier than thou" attitude problem, which we see a lot in various different contexts, so I guess it's actually nothing new.
Society is actually very accepting of people who don't conform to stereotypes, as much as we like to think it isn't. And even so, what's actually wrong with conforming to stereotypes? Some girls like being girly girls and some boys like being boy boys, there's nothing wrong with that either.
I think parents should talk to their children and say it's okay to like what THEY want to like and not be concerned with other people's opinions. Children need to learn that there will always be people in life who will judge them and these are the people who don't matter; trying to remove any form of judgement just means the child isn't learning how to deal with it.