To exaggerate this view somewhat, there seem to be two camps of people.
On one side, you get the view that women should be able to go out and about in basically their underwear without repercussion because it's not their fault if men can't control themselves.
On the other side, people say that women should dress more appropriately because they might get raped otherwise.
I am reading a book for uni called The Blank Slate by Steven Pinker and thought I'd share this with you.
"Of course women have a right to dress in any way they please, but the issue is not what women have a right do to in a perfect world but how they can maximise their safety in this world..."
He quotes Paglia
"Misled by feminism, these girls say 'Well I should be able to get drunk at a fraternity party and go upstairs to a guy's room without anything happening.' And I say 'Oh really? And when you drive your car to New York City do you leave your keys on the hood?' My point is that if your car is stolen after you do something like that, yes the police should pursue the thief and he should be punished. But at the same time, the police have the right to say to you 'you stupid idiot, what the hell were you thinking?'"
And he quotes McElroy
"The fact that women are vulnerable to attack means we cannot have it all. We cannot walk at night across an unlit campus or down a back alley without incurring real danger. These are things every woman should be able to do, but 'shoulds' belong in a utopian world. They belong in a world where you drop your wallet in a crowd and have it returned, complete with credit cards and cash. A world in which unlocked Porsches are parked in the inner city. And children can be left unattended in the park. This is not the reality that confronts and confines us."
There was recently the slut walk and other campaigns where woman say they have the right to dress how they want.
I'm not sure I totally agree. I mean, I wouldn't expect to walk through certain areas of London with £50 notes dangling out of my pockets. As McElroy says, these crimes DO happen and it's not wise to go poking at it with a stick. You have to face reality.
Your thoughts?
Isn’t it funny how day by day nothing changes but when you look back, everything is different…
you once called your brain a hard drive, well say hello to the virus.
Well, I do agree that people should have the right to wear what they want, but I also agree that we live in the 'real world' and that we have to keep ourselves safe in every way we can because rape does and always will happen.
Keeping yourself safe, clothes-wise, is a kind of contentious issue though. From previous rape-related N&D threads it seems that it's just as risky to wear a hoodie and jeans as it is to wear a boob-tube and mini-skirt.
But, the point is, that yes, people should be able to wear whatever they like, but realistically, people need to take some responsibility for their own selves and observe safety (walking with other people, walk down well-lit streets etc.) to minimise the risk of being raped.
It's a two-way thing. It's not as simple as saying "guys can't keep it in their pants" or "girls shouldn't dress like sluts". It's both, and the levels of each differ in every individual scenario.
Well, I do agree that people should have the right to wear what they want, but I also agree that we live in the 'real world' and that we have to keep ourselves safe in every way we can because rape does and always will happen.
Keeping yourself safe, clothes-wise, is a kind of contentious issue though. From previous rape-related N&D threads it seems that it's just as risky to wear a hoodie and jeans as it is to wear a boob-tube and mini-skirt.
But, the point is, that yes, people should be able to wear whatever they like, but realistically, people need to take some responsibility for their own selves and observe safety (walking with other people, walk down well-lit streets etc.) to minimise the risk of being raped.
This. But also, there is no hard and fast rules and to turn this on its head, just because a person takes precautions doesnt mean they wont get raped. People (men and women) get raped even if they are in public areas or in groups. Yes less commonly but it does still happen.
To use an analogy, I recall upon Qatar being announced as the host for the 2022 world cup, Sepp Blatter remarked that gay football fans 'refrain from any sexual activities' if they go. Naturally there was uproar; to put responsibility on the victims and not the intolerate, prejudiced government is ridiculous and and this I see as no different. (Also to go off on a tangent, South Africa was subject to a vast number of sporting boycotts while it was under apartheid, but to criminalize a person for their sexuality rather than skin colour? Oh that's just ****ing fine!)
After 9/11 and 7/7 there was obviously a lot of fear. Statistically of course, there was barely any risk in going on a tube or taking a flight, but the fear was still there and I imagine some people certainly refrained from doing so at least for some time. But the majority of the public spoke of 'not letting the terrorists win' and carried about their normal lives. Instances of rape are obviously not as rare as terrorist attacks, but they are still very rare and while I'm not going to advocate putting oneself in obviously dangerous situations, to change how I dress (especially when, as people have pointed out, there is no correlation between dressing 'sluttily' and being raped, in fact there is perhaps something of a negative correlation) is to live my life in fear, and I'm not willing to do that.
I really don't think your chances of rape goes up that much on how you dress. I think it has more to do with where you are at (alone, location, etc.) and how you carry yourself (insecure vs. confident). So I don't think you can really say "you should've dressed differently" because I don't think it would change your chances. Also, I find it funny that people talk about "women going about in their underwear" but on a beach no one would say a woman shouldn't have worn a bikini. But if she wore a bikini to a store now she should've expected to get raped? What's the difference? Also, it seems odd to me that men don't get any slack for not wearing shirts but women do? Who's to say that a woman's breasts are indecent and not a man's? Simply because they are bigger and people find them attractive?
I just think the whole clothing thing is really societal/cultural and nothing to do with morality or rape. I really wish it were acceptable to go nude, not because I particularly would, but because I think this whole argument is simply a relativistic cultural norm that changes over time and has no real basis. No one is hurting anyone by wearing less clothing; many ancient people only wore clothing when it was needed for protection. (think of various stories of tribes who went nude or close to it) Our definition of "decent" has changed so much over time that I don't see how it could be considered an absolute or anything to do with rape even. 200 years ago, showing your ankles, knees, etc. would've been immodest and you'd be held responsible for getting raped. Now that sounds ridiculous, but we use the same logic they used 200 years ago, just to different extents when judging what a woman wears. I've also never heard the argument that a man should wear more or he has a higher likelihood of sexual assault. So I think it's important to change society's thinking and realize that clothing is simply for protection or style, it has nothing to do with morals unless you put religious beliefs into it, and religious beliefs are generally considered by society to not be binding to anyone but the people holding the religious beliefs. So yeah, I see what you're saying, but you're assuming rape is linked to level of clothing, which I think is an assumption many disagree with. Rape is almost always an issue of power; it's most often a crime of opportunity (again, location, easier to do without getting caught/fought back against); and it's most often not a stranger in a dark alley but someone you are acquainted with or even know well. So I just don't think the clothing thing is a valid argument regarding protecting yourself from rape. I'd think rather where you go and how you travel and who you allow yourself to get intoxicated with and being aware of your surroundings are much more productive ways to protect yourself from rape than worrying about your clothing being "modest" or not.
Stereotypes are the epitome of human laziness.
- me
I am sick of the notion where people believe what a woman wears actually influences a man to rape her. Do people really believe that just because a woman isn't dressed like a "slut" then a potential rapist won't rape her? Seriously? Do people really think it makes a difference? A normal man on the street won't suddenly turn into a rapist if he sees a woman wearing short skirt, and a rapist won't be put off just because his victim isn't. I know some rapists have tried to deflect the blame by saying their victim was scantly dressed, but that's all it is. An excuse. All criminals make excuses why they commit crimes so they can get off from the charges/get a more lenient sentence.
I do believe in personal responsibility, but I don't think it stretches to what a woman actually wears. Of course a woman (or man) should not walk alone through dark alleyways at night in case they get do become a victim of a crime such as raping, mugging, random beating ups, etc, just like you shouldn't leave your windows/doors opened or unlocked when you leave the house or leave your car unlocked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athiri
To use an analogy, I recall upon Qatar being announced as the host for the 2022 world cup, Sepp Blatter remarked that gay football fans 'refrain from any sexual activities' if they go. Naturally there was uproar; to put responsibility on the victims and not the intolerate, prejudiced government is ridiculous and and this I see as no different. (Also to go off on a tangent, South Africa was subject to a vast number of sporting boycotts while it was under apartheid, but to criminalize a person for their sexuality rather than skin colour? Oh that's just ****ing fine!)
I do not agree with their rules, but you have to acknowledge that it's their country and they are allowed to make the rules they see fit, no matter what us "Westerners" think, not that they even give a **** what we think. I feel disgusted when I see women getting stoned for adultery or lashes or whatever for some sexist crime in places like Saudi Arabia or wherever, but there's nothing I/we can do about that. My only resolve is to never go to a country where I strongly agree with the laws and I think the gay football fans who are strongly against the law in Qutar about homosexual activity do the same. :/
"Of course women have a right to dress in any way they please, but the issue is not what women have a right do to in a perfect world but how they can maximise their safety in this world..."
I do wonder if in a very sick way, rapists do look for women who they think wouldn't be believed because of society's view on dressing like a slut, etc. Such as how child abusers tend to seek out vulnerable, isolated children.
That isn't me blaming victims at all, I just wondered if there could be a similarity there with how the rapist views things..
^^Someone posted that on fb today. I was disgusted but not that shocked. I think it's a lack of education/intelligence that men (or women) think a girl can be responsible for a rape or even increase its likelihood due to her clothing. It has nothing to do with it. I would like someone who believes this to show me statistics that a girl is at a higher likelihood of being raped solely based on her clothing, excluding all other factors. (assuming we can define what is "slutty" clothing and what is not).
Like someone said, it's actually harder to grab someone in some of the more "revealing" clothing, and it's pretty well known that rapists go for the women that they are most likely to get by with it with: a woman that is alone and does not appear likely to fight back, someone the rapist knows and thus less likely to tell other people, a woman that is heavily intoxicated when there is no one else around to stop it, a woman who does not look aware (is digging in her purse for keys in the dark, is not looking at her surroundings, etc.) also a woman in a situation where she can be more easily/quickly grabbed without being noticed such as long hair, especially in a ponytail (I hardly think that counts as "slutty"), and other ways that make the crime easier to get by with. Whether she has a short skirt on or skinny jeans doesn't make it easier to not get caught. That's all a rapist cares about. Not to mention the amount of stranger rapes are pretty low compared to rapes by people the person knows.
I don't get why people don't realize the dress is just the rapist's excuse. They want to get a lesser sentence and so they find the one thing society judges women on the most: their dress, and uses it as an excuse. And sadly, society falls for it. It has nothing to do statistically with actually having a higher likelihood of getting raped. Think of the things listed above that influence a rapist's decision on who to rape, most aren't things you'd ever "blame" a woman for, although you might adjust your habits to make it less likely. But clothing isn't even a factor except when it makes you easier to be grabbed/kept from escaping. The "sluttiness" of it has no bearing at all, and I really wish people that think it does would show some sort of evidence for it. You can't say "don't do this (i.e. dress like this)" for your own safety if you don't provide any evidence that it really is going to affect your safety!
Stereotypes are the epitome of human laziness.
- me
I think the clothes issue is an excuse rapists use.
And I wonder if there are any studies that document the clothing worn by rape victims.
The problem is rape occurs so much behind closed doors. When it is a stranger, maybe clothes does influence them [wrongly of course], but in terms of the overall effect what a person wears has on the probability of being raped; I doubt it is a viable factor.
There is no excuse for a man to rape a woman and in the same vein there is no excuse for a woman to rape a man.
What you wear should not come into it. So a woman wears a mini skirt and boob tube and high heels. Whats the difference between that and a man going commando and only wearing shorts and flip flops with his t-shirt off. A woman may look more sexualised but that is also no excuse.
Rape is rape.
You can increase your safety levels when out - don't walk alone, down dark alleys etc but using lack of clothing as an excuse. Pardon me while I go and throw up.
GRANT ME THE SERENITY TO ACCEPT THE THINGS I CANNOT CHANGE
THE COURAGE TO CHANGE THE THINGS I CAN
AND THE WISDOM TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE
tis a very interesting topic, and one that will be debated for eternity. But interestingly enough, I am doing some uni research on the prevalence of individuals who recant after they have disclosed to police they have been raped/abused.
a very interesting collection of data has been reported, granted preliminary but a portion of women that I interviewed reported recanting their allegations because they were being bullied by investigators because "they didn't look like the right type of person to be raped". Several of these women reported being of a heavier set build, some middle aged, and all dressed in baggier clothing (most trackpants and comfy clothes). All reported some aspect of the investigators getting them to confess that they were cheating or sleeping around and it turned pear shaped, and some reported that they were encouraged to come clean about "lying".
I find this appaulling and disgusting that society is so focused on societal images that those that don't fit into the boxes are simply not counted and their experiences just tossed aside.
life isn't about finding yourself, it's about creating yourself.
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