Claire, of course they're not all heroes - they're ordinary men and women doing the job which they've been trained to do. But it's amazing how many of them do show heroism when stuff hits the fan, particularly when their mates are wounded or in serious danger. Their primary loyalty is actually towards those mates with whom they've trained, worked and shared dangers with, not towards some nebulous idea of Queen and Country.
Of course, and I'm not wanting to take away from that, especially considering the conditions they are in. I just think that there are a lot of people doing jobs which are also dangerous (not quite as dangerous true), who don't get the same recognition.
Quote:
I don't want to be drawn on the comparative dangers of soldiering, fire service or policing, though I'm quite clear in my own mind that Afghanistan must come top of any list. And soldiers don't go on strike as did the firemen recently, cynically choosing Guy Fawkes night to do so despite their already cushy terms of service (I can remember when the Army first manned the Green Goddesses years ago when the firemen were striking for a rise greater than the total pay of the soldiers who stood in for them - sheer bloody greed, a habit which they don't seem to have lost).
Soldiers can't strike, can they? Like the police, i think?
I remember when a Green Goddess was up this way because of the strike a few years ago. I don't think the firemen did themselves any favours with their most recent strike. I'll be the first to speak out against strikes in general, and I'm sure we've probably had that discussion before!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isoverity
That is what makes them heros. They know they could get their legs or face shot off and they sign up anyway - while their mates stay home and binge drink and worry about football scores.
So firemen must be heroes, because they know they'll be running into burning buildings but sign up anyway?
No, I wouldn't. I choose to provide a service to the people in the country I live in in a different and entirely more positive way through my choice of profession. One which (hopefully!) won't kill me.
Precisely.
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Oh dear! There are people posting on this thread who have obviously paid no attention to other recent threads discussing the unavoidable necessity of war - and it is sometimes unavoidable, however much we might wish otherwise. So of course people are free to choose whatever career they want (thanks to the sacrifices of earlier generations), but to claim that their choice is more "positive" than a Service career is patronising and self-deluding.
Soldiers join the Army for many different reasons - lack of jobs elsewhere, family connections, an inborn desire to be a soldier, and so on. But one thing they definitely don't join up for is to be killed or maimed for life. And what can be more positive - and gallant - than to put your life on the line for your country and thus your family and friends.
You're not telling me that people who join the army don't know there is a chance they may be killed or maimed.
It would be different if there was conscription. All I can hope is that there isn't another world war which would make conscription necessary.
As for doing it "for your country" I don't think this is the case any more. It would be different if Hitler was bombing the crap out of our countries and it was truly necessary to fight for the right to keep our country. But war these days is usually just politics.
Last edited by effervescence : 11-11-2010 at 12:32 AM.
Reason: adding
Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.
I think we need to be really careful with the idea of a 'necessary' war. Historically, I think that too often giant egos have got in the way of politics, meaning that instead of trying to pro-actively and peacefully handle the situation, countries seem to be unwilling to do positive action or, indeed, have their interests as too much of a priority, meaning that they miss the larger picture. To risk bringing it up again, the situation surrounding the outbreak of WW2, for example, had a lot to do with what happened at the Treaty of Versailles, pretty much destroying Germany. Hitler didn't have to work hard to create an enemy in Germay - it's not hard to convince a country that they need to fight, when it's clear to see the hugely negative impact that the (illegal) laws and punishments the "evil enemy" created had on the country. There are obviously a large number of contributory factors to war, but I do think that there is a tendency sometimes for the 'allied' countries to find fault in the 'enemy' country, without really accepting the influence that they've had, or think of other ways to diffuse the situations. It's a tricky one, though, and I mean no disrespect to anybody here. It's a hugely emotive topic, I do know that.
I read a story today about the British leaders going to a meeting in China, and they were wearing their poppies. Somebody informed Cameron that the poppy had a negative significance in China, reminding China of the Opium wars, and raising an awful lot of negative emotion. Cameron's response? Essentially, it means something for the UK so **** China. That's the sort of negative attitude that just perpetuates war and violence. Collaboration and cohesion is far more powerful than brute force - think of Aesop's fable about the sunshine with it's gentle rays being more productive at removing the man's coat than the cold and harrowing winds :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
I hope one day this can end.
I do too. Otherwise the lives lost in war to this point have just been an ugly, brutal waste.
Last edited by Dreaming. : 11-11-2010 at 01:11 AM.
I think we should all calm down and take a step back from this, and rememebr why this thread was initially made. It was not to debate war, to debate the difference between today's soldiers and our forefathers, or to attack each other for having oppinions. It was a thread made to simply remember, 'lest we forget'.
Can I suggest that if you want to have a debate about war, you take it elsewhere, and leave this thread in peace. If this thread carries on down the slippery slope i'm worried it already has then I think that it would be disrespectful. So please, bare in mind what tommorow (now today) is about.
"I would be almighty in my own world of art, even if I had to paint my pictures with my wet tongue on the dusty floor of my cell." -Picasso
"No, painting is not done to decorate apartments. It is an instrument of war." - Picasso
'I have scars becuase I have a past; but they, like my past, do not define my future'
I think it's sad if people view this thread as an attack, or as people losing their tempers. This reads - to me, anyway - as one of the most respectful threads on this emotive topic so far, even if it has differing opinions. But if people are getting wound up, it never hurts to take a step back and think about it. Yes yes.
Makes me very sad. I know someone whos being deployed to Afghanistan in January, he knows the danger, but the army is the only thing that ever improved his life, as odd as that sounds.x
There are times to stay put, and what you want will come to you.
But there are times to go out into the world and find such a thing for yourself.
I aint no abacus but you can count on me.
Makes me very sad. I know someone whos being deployed to Afghanistan in January, he knows the danger, but the army is the only thing that ever improved his life, as odd as that sounds.x
Thats not odd at all liv. For many people here the military is the only way to get out of the area and go to uni. After doing a few years of active duty, the GI bill pays most of the tuition at state schools.
I have see people who graduated last in their class become strong, respectful men and women. The army can do great things for people.
Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her;
If you can bounce high, bounce for her too,
Till she cry "Lover, gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover,
I must have you!"
Thomas Parke D’Invilliers
Thats not odd at all liv. For many people here the military is the only way to get out of the area and go to uni. After doing a few years of active duty, the GI bill pays most of the tuition at state schools.
I have see people who graduated last in their class become strong, respectful men and women. The army can do great things for people.
Yep thats true :) He was always looking for something to set him straight as it were. The army is the only place where he has routine, where he has to buckle under other people and where he can think about what he wants to do with his life.
I think in his mind that outweighs the risks, the army can do a lot to help people who dont have a direction in life. x
There are times to stay put, and what you want will come to you.
But there are times to go out into the world and find such a thing for yourself.
I aint no abacus but you can count on me.
I think it's sad if people view this thread as an attack, or as people losing their tempers. This reads - to me, anyway - as one of the most respectful threads on this emotive topic so far, even if it has differing opinions.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.
One of my best friends husbands is currently over in Afghanistan for the second time.
He LOVES being in the army, to be honest, he was a comple and utter shiit bag before he went in.
I think sometime people join the army because it seems like a logical next step, similar to those whos logical next step is to go to university. I think it can be a bit over whelming when they realise they have to actually go fight.
Thanks, Purple. I started this post to remind people of the sacrifices others have made which allow them to enjoy the soft and cushy life which most of us do today. And to hope that peeps would contribute to the Poppy Appeal that helps those left needy after whichever war it was. I did not intend to start any sort of acrimonious debate about the morality of war (though if anyone wants to do so, please PM me).
I heard on the radio this morning Col Bob Stewart, a former commander in Bosnia, rejoicing that his former battalion was now back from a tour in Afghanistan - but the battalion lost 12 dead in the tour and, of 7 men wounded there were only 2 limbs remaining between them. How utterly appalling - and it is for helping the rehab of people like that the Poppy Appeal exists. I do hope that many of you had thoughts this morning about those who made the supreme sacrifice on your behalf ...
Tony.
PS. And effervescence, for someone so usually good with words, you've left me wondering just what I should be comparing with what - a soldiers life against a doctors/psychiatrists/ teachers/ nurses life? All very worthy professions, but none involve (normally) incoming sniper or RPG rounds. Lest you think I may be putting down NZ, you should know that FM Sir Michael Carver, formerly head of all UK Forces and who served through the whole of the North Africa campaign in WW2, rated the NZ Division as the very best he'd served with.
PPS. Dreaming, of course the terms of the Versailles Treaty were weighted against Germany. They started the bloody war by invading Belgium without any justifiable excuse. Germany, up until 1914 and again in the 1930s was highly militaristic and was, more than any other nation in Europe, responsible for the awful horrors that ensued.
PPPS. Reminder: This thread is about the peacetime recovery of those who need our help!
For those of you who say "they choose to join the army" - what if people didn't make that choice? We'd have to go back to the days of people being signed up against their will and forced to go to war. At the end of the day, it's a sad reality that there is always going to be conflict and war, and therefore someone needs to defend our country - our modern soldiers are the brave men and women who do this for us.
I heard a very true comment earlier - "If you don't want to stand behind our troops, then maybe you'd like to stand infront of them!"
Well said, Jelly. And for the rest of us, watch the Festival of Remembrance at the Albert Hall on Saturday night and then the ceremony at the Cenotaph on Sunday morning.
I don't want to bang on to the point of boredom about all this, but take in enough to realise that we all have a duty to acknowledge and support those who have done the business on our behalf - they deserve our help.
When we lose twenty pounds... we may be losing the twenty best pounds we have! We may be losing the pounds that contain our genius, our humanity, our love and honesty. ~Woody Allen
Is a chocolate muffin loving glitter ball
I had wondered why there were wreaths by the bridge of remembrance yesterday, In NZ we dont celebrate this but we do ANZAC day- which is very similar. So thanks for informing me!!!
I would deffently consider going into the army, other than my parents are against it (being a girl and all)
Some one mentioned being a hero in a other jobs... being a hero is recognised in other jobs, on the queens list in june?
but being a hero is showing courage, and that is something that in the army is pretty much written into the contract- as yes with a lot of other jobs.
Anyway this quote I think sums up what I think a hero thinks- cant remember where its from
"courage is not the absence of fear, It is seeing the fear and walking on anyway"
Sorry for the long ramble :)
Doing what you love can be the loneliest time of your life
A climbers day starts at the crux, getting out of bed.
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