I don't share your faith in the pharmaceutical industry. The question - are Anti-psychotics safe? deserves a thread all of it's own. Surely your not telling me Zyprexa (& others) are healthy for you!
The predominant trials are done in the community on mental patients. Drug concoctions are also never tested before release. If someone is placed on an anti-depressant & anti-psychotic - that will have never been clinically tested.
But few drugs, whether for physical or psychiatric use, are 'healthy'.
18.11 28.4 6.5 22.31
My heart just needs his smile, that i can't forget, like so melancholy a kiss.
there doesn't seem to be an alternative at the moment, though. it's either the typicals or the atypicals, both with their merits and negatives. all medication comes with potentially dangerous side-effects so you have to weigh up whether your psychosis poses a greater risk or the medication.
I have spent 20 years looking into viable & comprehensive alternatives. From the pioneering work of Carl Jung, to John Weir Perry & Diabasis, to Loren Mosher & Soteria House. & many, many others. People can & often do recover med free if given half a chance.
Here are two well known examples -
Rufus May - diagnosed & labelled with Schizophrenia; Hospitalised & medicated. Went on to come off all medication, & make a full recovery, trained as a Clinical Psychologist & now works for the NHS; treats people with 'med free' methods; & as a MH campaigner.
There is a massive body of easily researchable evidence; & proof that people can indeed recover fully from even the most severe of psychiatric illness completely med free. A fact which is sadly ignored & denied by most people.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
"The harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection". - Einstein
I would argue that no drug is really safe for long-term use, but as a short-term thing they can be beneficial. Especially if carefully monitored.
Maybe under certain circumstances. & some need meds. But in an ideal World it would be as a last resort after other methods have failed.
When are meds used 'short term' with the labelled mentally ill? When are they carefully monitored? I don't see it.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
"The harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection". - Einstein
Depends on the prescriber how they monitor the drugs, but I know of a few cases where people have had to keep diaries of feelings/effects and they get regular weekly checks. And it depends on the illness for short-term drug use. The patient could decide they don't like or want them, the doctor could say there are better treatments, or just take you off them since if they were going to have an impact they would have. Or if they have worked, the drugs can be used as a crutch to help you get sorted again rather than a permanent solution to the problem.
Depends on the prescriber how they monitor the drugs, but I know of a few cases where people have had to keep diaries of feelings/effects and they get regular weekly checks. And it depends on the illness for short-term drug use. The patient could decide they don't like or want them, the doctor could say there are better treatments, or just take you off them since if they were going to have an impact they would have. Or if they have worked, the drugs can be used as a crutch to help you get sorted again rather than a permanent solution to the problem.
True - & things are a bit different today than they were 20 years ago when I was first unwell.
My situation is that I have been dependant on meds for 12 years. I hate being on them. I was never offered alternatives & was forced & coerced medications. I have only just recently managed to get psychological help. 10 sessions with an NHS psychologist; 20 years after the fact! It isn't right - which is why I feel so strongly about this stuff.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
"The harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection". - Einstein
There is a massive body of easily researchable evidence; & proof that people can indeed recover fully from even the most severe of psychiatric illness completely med free. A fact which is sadly ignored & denied by most people.
sadly there doesn't seem to be the help available to treat people med-free. i remember once researching Rufus May because i was interested in his methods (i am quite anti-meds - for myself) but didn't get much encouragement from my care team to pursue this.
i'd love to be med-free. i spent a year in a therapeutic community where it was expected that people would be treated without their medication. they tried to take me off mine, i became unwell, they said i had to go back on them and have remained on them since (although i've taken myself off them at times, and relapsed) and i was very disappointed.
yes, i do think for me personally, i'd love to find a way without medication. but for some, it really does improve the quality of life where other help is far between - benefits outweigh the side effects.
sadly there doesn't seem to be the help available to treat people med-free. i remember once researching Rufus May because i was interested in his methods (i am quite anti-meds - for myself) but didn't get much encouragement from my care team to pursue this.
i'd love to be med-free. i spent a year in a therapeutic community where it was expected that people would be treated without their medication. they tried to take me off mine, i became unwell, they said i had to go back on them and have remained on them since (although i've taken myself off them at times, and relapsed) and i was very disappointed.
yes, i do think for me personally, i'd love to find a way without medication. but for some, it really does improve the quality of life where other help is far between - benefits outweigh the side effects.
I do agree. I am not saying that meds don't help people; nor that some are best treated with meds.
Simply that there should be far more choice & support for people who do wish to try other methods. I am sure that everyone will agree that meds are simply one part of a potential treatment; & there are many things which can help the lives of sufferers & improve prognosis - from psychological help & social support; to structured lives & secure accommodation ect ect.
It is about a balance I suppose. There doesn't appear to be much in the UK - is that where you are from? Which community did you go to?
I was never given the chance of a med free recovery. I have no real idea of knowing how I would have faired given that opportunity.
At 17 I was put on a lot of meds; 6 months later I successfully stopped them all, until I was put back on them at 21. Again I stopped them all over the space of a couple of years. then at 25 put back on them again. I haven't been able to stop this time. I have tried stopping 3 times & been very ill. But I would say that this is due to many reasons, & not simply an underlying illness. A lot of the reaction I get I think is largely a withdrawal reaction from the meds. There is very little support - & the NHS doesn't help with these things. I think that is wrong - Orthodox medicine made me dependant on these drugs; they should do everything in their power to help me get off them; if that is what I choose to try.
In the UK especially - med free alternatives are not available to the majority of people - that does not mean that certain med free alternatives don't work.
I have to accept that for the time being I am on meds, & that is my situation.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
"The harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection". - Einstein
i hope too that they do more research into helping people who want to recover/live with symptoms without the use of medication. that would be a wonderful thing. i think at the moment most of the research does go into treating people with medication rather than otherwise. i'm sorry it has been such a struggle for you to get psychological support.
i went to Main House in Birmingham - it's a Complex Needs/Personality Disorder unit but i had psychosis too. since i've left, the people there and my own care team have really just drummed in how important the medication is, but i'm lucky enough to have psychology sessions too and i think it is everyone's hope that one day i won't need medication anymore.
i hope too that they do more research into helping people who want to recover/live with symptoms without the use of medication. that would be a wonderful thing. i think at the moment most of the research does go into treating people with medication rather than otherwise. i'm sorry it has been such a struggle for you to get psychological support.
i went to Main House in Birmingham - it's a Complex Needs/Personality Disorder unit but i had psychosis too. since i've left, the people there and my own care team have really just drummed in how important the medication is, but i'm lucky enough to have psychology sessions too and i think it is everyone's hope that one day i won't need medication anymore.
You sound like an interesting & intelligent person. Hopefully one day you can be successfully medication free, & I can be too.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
"The harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection". - Einstein
Thing is a lot of us don't have a choice. I have previously been told if I refused medication I would be sectioned and forced to take it. And I know enough people who have been through this not to go through it myself.
I have also seen people who have refused antipsychotics make amazing progress once they started taking them.
I would very much argue with treating things like psychosis without medication. I am also very wary of encouraging people to go against doctors wishes and stop taking medication, just because it scares me as I have seen traumatic results of stopping medication without doctors consent.
There are few problems that drugs can 'fix'; there are imbalances that can be corrected, but subduing a person needn't be a bad things; if anti-psychotics give someone an element of stability, they are then in a position to better look at the emotional side of things, something they can't do if they're a danger to themselves or others.
For what it's worth - i've mentioned this before - Patrick Holford's work is very interesting, a lot on vitamin therapy, with great results.
18.11 28.4 6.5 22.31
My heart just needs his smile, that i can't forget, like so melancholy a kiss.
There are few problems that drugs can 'fix'; there are imbalances that can be corrected,
I am very unconvinced on that. For starters there is no proof or evidence for the 'chemical imbalance theory' - none - if you have scientific evidence to the contrary then please share it. There is no bio-medical test for these 'conditions'.
The other pertinent point is that medication works by changing brain function. The irony is - that medication doesn't correct anything, in truth they cause chemical imbalance (therapeutically or not). Irregardless of what the pharmaceutical industry would have you believe.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
"The harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection". - Einstein
The brain is full of natural chemicals, so logic dictates that imbalances are possible. Physical illnesses may be characterised by an imbalance - diabetes for example - why can't the brain, as a part of the body be a part of that? Imbalances occure naturally in the body, i don't see why the brain should be excluded from that fact.
Vitamin imbalances or deficiencies can have a huge impact; studies have been done with schizophrenia and the patients were shown to not absorb vitamin C properly, with theraputic doses (3 grams), they were treated very successfully.
Those 'enforced' imbalances through medication may be what helps and be what benefits a person. Brains don't always work properly, some need help. By correcting an imbalance, medication may 'correct' an issue. And how else is medication to work, if not changing brain function, even at a low or specific level?
The brain doesn't suffer soley from psychiatric problems, neurology is a fascinating branch of medicine and one where conditions can be benefited immensely from medications.
The brain is a very complex thing and needs, ideally, a holistic approach and that can involve the successful and beneficial use of medication.
I mentioned previously vitamin therapy, for looking at studies (and other diet related studies), Optimum Nutrition for the Mind is a great read, referencing a lot of studies.
18.11 28.4 6.5 22.31
My heart just needs his smile, that i can't forget, like so melancholy a kiss.
The brain is full of natural chemicals, so logic dictates that imbalances are possible. Physical illnesses may be characterised by an imbalance - diabetes for example - why can't the brain, as a part of the body be a part of that? Imbalances occur naturally in the body, i don't see why the brain should be excluded from that fact.
I don't think it should. Firstly there needs to be a big distinction made between psychiatry & neurology. There is a massive difference between the two.
Diabetes is a physical condition - 'Schizophrenia' has never been proved to be biologically caused. GP's don't tell their Diabetic patients that their Diabetes is like Schizophrenia - that would be ridiculous - it is just as ridiculous, to my mind, to make the comparison the other way around. Of course there may well be biological nuances. But how can you say such theorised things are not rather an effect - than the generally assumed cause?
More importantly is the fact that very little is known about the true workings of the brain - let alone how it is influenced by Genetic factors. They do not know what is gong on inside the brain of anyone - let alone the brain of someone who is 'ill' - it is all conjecture & theory.
Quote:
What Do We Really Know About How Our Brains Work?
Consider this extraordinary reality. The human brain has more individual cells (neurons) than there are stars in the sky. Billions! And each neuron may have 10,000 or more connections (synapses) to other brain cells, creating a network with trillions of interconnections. In fact, the brain is considered to be the most complex organ in the entire universe. With it's billions of neurons & trillions of synapses, it is more complex than the entire physical universe of planets, stars & galaxies.
Scientists have well-developed ideas about how the physical universe works. They posses mathematical formulae for describing the various forces that control the relationships among physical entities from black holes to subatomic particles. All these forces also affect the human brain. However, the living processes of the brain add complexities unknown in the physical universe. Those trillions of interconnections between brain cells, for example, are mediated by hundreds of chemical messengers (neurotransmitters), as well as by hormones, proteins, tiny ions such as sodium & potassium, & other substances. We have limited knowledge about how a few of these chemical messengers work, but little or no idea as to how they combine to produce brain function.
Quoted from "Your Drug May be Your Problem" by Peter R. Breggin
Psychiatric drugs are tested by crushing up rat brains & administering the potions to measure changes in basic chemical levels. Hardly an exact science is it? I find meds comparable to smashing a computer with a sledge hammer to fix it.
Quote:
Vitamin imbalances or deficiencies can have a huge impact; studies have been done with schizophrenia and the patients were shown to not absorb vitamin C properly, with therapeutic doses (3 grams), they were treated very successfully.
Yes - I am aware of the studies. Good diet is incredibly important; but such methods do not work for everyone. I have tried such things, I attended the Holford institute. I thought it was an incredible waste of money.
I think things are multi faceted & mental illness is part of a continuum & a spectrum. There is no one provable categorical cause. It is highly likely that individual cases are different & that there are many influencing factors; both with causes & prognosis. From biological, to psychogenic, social, diet, interpersonal relationships & many others.
Quote:
Those 'enforced' imbalances through medication may be what helps and be what benefits a person. Brains don't always work properly, some need help. By correcting an imbalance, medication may 'correct' an issue. And how else is medication to work, if not changing brain function, even at a low or specific level?
It can be very well argued that medication doesn't 'work'. That at best it all it does is mask symptoms & makes people apathetic & easier to mange (control), & at worse makes people more ill. It is worth also looking at the effects of spellbinding -
The brain is a very complex thing and needs, ideally, a holistic approach and that can involve the successful and beneficial use of medication.
Such a holistic approach does not necessarily need to use mediation - if comprehensive enough. & this has been proved in certain studies. The Soteria project being but one amongst others.
I mentioned previously vitamin therapy, for looking at studies (and other diet related studies), Optimum Nutrition for the Mind is a great read, referencing a lot of studies.
I have read some of it. It's on the book shelf. Personally I wasn't convinced; but for some it appears to work.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
"The harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection". - Einstein
