I propose...
 

... there should be a ban on asking for advice if you're not going to take it.
Particularly in relation to the first aid section.
Now, obviously we don't all take the advice we're given regarding emotional problems etc, but people post in the first aid forum wanting medical advice and it f*cks me off when they ignore it.

If someone has OD'd, they know that the advice from the FAA is to go to the hospital, yet a couple of posts down it's all 'i can't go to the hospital, mom will find out' or something or another.
Why post?
There is nothing a FAA advisor can do about it if you're too stubborn to go to the hospital.
It seems to be as it's increasingly becoming another way to tell members how woe they are, letting them know they have OD'd.
First Aid Advice should only be given to those who will follow it.

Part rant/part suggestion.

Opinions?

Yes please :]

Well said!

Hmm it could possibly be implemented on the first aid board and I'd fully support that being introduced. It's very unfair when people worry other people that they are dangerously ill and then refuse to do anything to help themselves. Pity it couldn't work on the other boards.

It's like I get hacked off with people going "oh woe is me, my life's so awful, I'm all alone and no one understands, I want to die". And then you ask have they reached out for help in the real world, have they tried different options. And it makes me feel a bit like, well if you wont help yourself what do you expect anyone else to be able to do for you! Suicide should be the last option after you've exhausted everything else. Nothing worth having comes easy and I think that's especially true of good mental health.

The first aid board would be a good start.
Incidentally this is why I rarely offer support to anyone that I don't know anymore.
I'm sick of wasting my energy on people who refuse to listen.

Chat is also as annoying as hell when it comes to this.
There was a prime example last week, and it wasn't even for emotional support - just advice regarding schooling and who to talk to etc.

infuriating.

Avoiding room 4 is a pretty good way to stop yourself being annoyed quite so often, in chat :p

Yes it's insanely annoying but realistically there's not much to be done, except in the FA board.

Yus I find this soooo irritating. Grr.

Oh I agree.

I have an uber rage rant on this that I saved to a text file XD.

It's a main reason I don't go snooping around the serious/first-aid sections.

I can see your point, but I know for me (other than things immediately likely to cause death like serious overdoses) I want advice on what I can do to help my body cope etc Without going to the doctor's/hospital. If someone says that is what I have to do then I will accept that but I like to know all the options when I am too afraid to approach medical staff for help because sometimes I just plain can't go, and want to know how to do damage limitation.

I find it very frustrating and upsetting too, but I also think it would be impossible to implement it as a rule. There would be so much grey area, for instance whether people were being given the right advice, what if the advice backfired, what if someone had the intention of getting help but backed out half way through etc.
I don't know, I just think there would also be a lot of people pissed off if it became a rule. I have various views on the use of the first aid forum which I won't go into as we've discussed it so many times, but what I think is relevant is why people ask for advice when they won't take it, and intend from the start not to take it.

On one hand, I do think some people post as Katy has said, to find out if there is anything they can do without seeking medical attention.

I know I have posted when I haven't had a clue how to help myself (for instance burning for the first time) and every time that I have been asked to see help outside the internet, I have done so.

What I think is causing this thread to come up is people not using the FA Board (or indeed RYL) in the spirit it is provided in. I think people use the FA Forum to inform friends indirectly about what they have done to themselves, for attention if you will. People won't like me saying that, but I Think it's important to recognise why people do this (and not everyone does it for this reason I completely understand) and try to work out how we can help.

Possibly here we could encourage the use journals more? Make them more well known? Maybe have a journal in the spotlight in the eZine? I'm not sure.

It is really difficult when you're trying to offer advice to someone and they keep just dismissing your suggestions and refusing to consider them as a possibility. I agree with Fallen Rain, perhaps if people are needing to vent or let people know what has happened, they could use the journals section or just post in one of the other sections. It can be quite off-putting to have people constantly brushing off your suggestions, it probably puts quite a few people off replying to posts...

Sorry, I know I'm quite new and not well known yet, but these are just my thoughts :)

I dont think this should be banned. Some people are looking for harm reduction without having to go to hospital because of various reasons.


I have *ignored* peoples advice in the past and now im trying to not do it and take on board advice by people who maybe able to see the experience more clearerly than me, because being on the other end it can get infuriating and i just end up thinking "why bother".


but sometimes people are in a bad blace, and just looking for hugs as opposed to advice. I dont think this should be banned but i understand how it can be annoying.
xx

The overdose posts are the worse though because 9 times out of 10 it will be the "oh i cant go to hospital" excuse. If people overdose then they know they have to go to hospital, not sit at a computer and complain that they cant. All anyone can do is tell them to go because any other adivse such as how to limit the effects would be against the rule.

I dont think im not the only one who thinkes thoese type of posts are just for attention.

I hate the "But what if people are in a bad place?" excuse. That's rubbish. We are all in a sh*t place at sometime or other, but we don't go onto the First Aid board to boast about an overdose or how many stitches we've recently had. There are many other ways to let others know you're doing badly - the Serious Board is for people who are struggling. But i don't believe in "I've cut like reaaalllllyyy deep and it won't stop bleeding" or "I've taken XXX amount of tablets" because it just puts other members in awkward positions and makes them worry unnecessarily.

This is exactly why i don't see the point of the First Aid board. I know i've said it before but i just don't see the point. Even if people who have overdosed PM a First Aider, they could be lying about the amount they've taken so the FAA gives them reasons to why they need to get treatment ASAP which can lead to tip sharing (i.e. "That amount of XXX can cause XXXX problems and could be fatal").

The articles are pretty clear on what to do in situations on burns/wounds, i understand if someone has burnt for the first time or cut for the first time them panicking and posting - i CAN understand that. But half the time it's either the same people posting about doing the same thing, or people just point blank refusing to get outside help.

People don't seem to realise on this website that without someone physically checking you out for broken bones or blood tests or knowing your records they aren't able to do much at all. The board is focused on SI/OD's but now there are articles what's the point of the board?
Why not just still keep the FAA's, but do a PM / Live Help type program instead of having a board?

All this combined is why i no longer go on the first aid board, or atleast i very rarely go on because the posts make me want to pull my hair out as 80% of people refuse to take any advice given to them.

I think I should put 'I agree with Acrasia' in my signiture. She always makes sense, and I always reply with 'I agree with Acrasia'. Hmm.

Yeah the point on having FAA, is what I was trying to step around.

i think its a good idea but in the end of the day it would be hard to keep and it would be hard to know what was being taken and not taken.

like i know a couple of people on the old versions (not on this version) that would say they werent going to the hospital and then they go to hospital.

sometimes its just about letting someone know how bad your feeling because sometimes its hard to tell people who can properly help you in the real world away from here.

but yeh good idea but not sure in practice it would work

maybe if there was like a trial period of it.

Well, I have posted in the past asking for 'damage limitation' kind of things, because often I know what would cure my health, but it's not really that simple. I've also posted because I've felt really terribly ill from my ED but not wanted to go and get checked out by a health professional and had nobody to talk to about it, and nobody to reassure me.

Regarding ODs, I suppose there is a valid point. I would go to hospital if I had taken enough of an OD to warrant that, and I wouldn't dither about posting on the first aid board.

I don't know.. This reply is kind of badly worded. I have mixed feelings.

People who post about obviously serious circumstance such as overdoses are probably seeking attention, sympathy, validation, whatever because frankly it is quite obvious that it is a medical situation not for a first aider over a computer screen.

Bad place or not - the person reading it is likely to be in a bad place also. Its unfair to place so much pressure on a person to help you when they are probably struggling themselves and then not even take the advice given, leaving everyone feeling completely helpless.

It's frustrating in any board to give advice that is not taken - that is met by constant stream of "yeah, but..."
Trouble is how can you stop it realistically? All you can really do is hope that the person who posts is seriously looking for advice and is going to take what is given.

My proposal:

We remove the First Aid Board completely, and have a system like Live Help that the First Aid Advisors Run themselves, and people are still open to PM, and they can have an email for themselves (firstaid@recoveryourlife.com or whatever).

This way:

a) You wouldn't have the problem of people posting just because they're suffering and they KNOW they need medical attention.
b) You wouldn't have members of RYL giving the wrong advice (which does happen).
c) People can go directly to the FAA's.

Also - some of the things people ask on the FA Board are things that can be asked in the SI forum or the General Advice Forum, about scars etc.
And the articles are there for everything anyway.

I don't think a Live Help type FA messenger would work - because whereas you can post and get advice from all kinds of people, FAA or not, in the board, you can only talk at the times the advisors are available with the messenger thing.

Unless there was some way of setting the FA board to not replying to your own thread or being locked when advice was given or something impossible..

I think highlighting a particular journal or something like that is also an interesting avenue to go down :)

i agree with the original suggestion concerning first aid.
i don't agree with the above quote. i'm sure i have said plenty of times woe is me, i want to die, etc but i have never asked/received any kind of help irl. i dunno, i just think it is a really difficult thing to do & personally i know that i have never wanted any kind of professional/outside help & i know loads of people on this site have done that and no disrespect good for them but just because someone is not receiving help (professional or otherwise) it doesn't mean they aren't trying to get better, or to better themselves in general.
i think the assumption that if someone is not reaching out for help irl but then still posts.. i dunno. i think it's pretty rude and nothing against you heidi because i have heard it many times from many people, but personally it always just makes me feel as if i am not worth bothering with just because i have not "reached out" for help in real life to anyone.

I agree with this. I'm sorry if this comes across as me being rude but i'm not, I see lots of people who dont take advice that is given to them but i dont think to myself "oh well they are not taking my "advice or other members advice i wont bother helping them", just because someone doesnt take your advice it doesnt mean they are not getting help for themselves.

i think it's just difficult with First Aid specifically - because there is a limit on what can be done online.

it's different with asking for emotional support and not taking the support on offer, because doing this provides the opportunity for release and promotes thinking on your situation, even if you choose not to go ahead with the advice in the end. one day you might - or you might not, you might come up with your own solution.

but with something like taking an overdose, there is usually only one thing that the FAAs and other members can advise - and that is getting medical help. most people who take overdoses or use this site, i believe, know this. it really does seem more like people who are posting saying they've OD'd but can't (WON'T) go to hospital are directly or indirectly trying to worry other members because they are worried about themselves.

people need to understand that the FAF has limits and that their actions have an influence on how other members feel.

if you phoned NHS Direct saying you'd OD'd, you'd almost certainly be told to go straight to A&E - in fact, NHS Direct would probably call an ambulance. people shouldn't expect different advice to be offered over the internet.

(i realise i've picked out overdoses as an example. there are a lot less clear-cut situations than this).

i find the FAF useful for general medical questions, and really appreciate it being there, especially when i've looked up on the internet what my problem may be but still need some clarification/personal experiences on non-dangerous situations. but part of me also wonders why we offer general medical advice on a self harm site. (is this a self harm site?!) not that i'm complaining!

I think this is the whole point - sorry to pick your post apart there!
The FAF was primarily made for Self Harm. Now that articles/phone numbers/advice has been put onto the main board - what is the primary use of the FAF?
I am not at all saying the FAA's don't do a good job or work hard, but i feel that even for general medical advice - you can get that reassurance and clarification via PM or a "Live Help" system. Atleast one FAA is on every single day and replies to 90% of posts made - but they give the same advice everytime, and the same links to there articles. I just feel it would be so much more beneficial for other members who want to ask more personal questions (which i have in the past) to PM first aiders - it will also make it much more personal and i know from me i'll feel more comfortable speaking to them on a one to one basis than broadcasting my personal general problems on the board.

x

i agree with OP and actually had a discussion along these lines with someone the other day. mand x

It is the policy of the FA team to lock threads where the OP refuses to get help. We don't always lock them, but we try to if we see them in time. We also don't lock them right away because we like to give people a chance to change their mind.

As for the other things brought up, there has already been an extensive discussion on it, and the changes are not likely to be implemented ever.

The biggest issue is that the FA team is not a large team, and all of us have very busy lives outside of RYL. This means we can not staff a Live Help like system for more than a couple of hours a day total, and right now, the way our schedules work we are often all on line at the same time, making it even more useless. The Supporters have a large number of people trained for their LH service, and it's still only online about 50% of the time. The FA team has no way of getting that number of people on the team.

A PM service is also not optimal. Right now if someone PMs us they may not get a response for hours until that person gets online. If we had some sort of joint account there is the issue of not knowing if soemone was replied to or what they were told without doing research, which takes valuable time.

With a public forum other people can give the person support, ideas and links to helpful information, which makes it easier for us.

As I said in another thread about this issue, I think the first aid board needs to be made more private.

Currently people post and everyone can see what they've written and so sometimes it turns into a "look what ive just done" situation.

In other forums I'm on there's boards where when you post, it's only visible to the OP and the mods of the forum (in this case the FAAs). So this would mean the OP would be able to see and get replies from the FAAs but not other members. I think this is a better solution and eliminates any attention seeking which sometimes occurs. After all the FAAs are the only people qualified to give advice short of seeing a professional.

^ that sounds a good idea i think. maybe for ODs and cuts etc is is only visable to faa and the op.

For more general issues, maybe everyone can see, and offer experiences /advice/support/whatever.

I haven't read the whole of this thread, but most about self harm/ODs/EDs etc in the First Aid Board are purely for attention seeking reasons.

It's not hard to read the stickies, and all the FAAs put in their posts (even if it's just for a papercut) say that they have to get it checked out at the hospital anyway.

YESYESYES.

Was about to say the same thing.

I really think thats a good idea however;

The whole reason the board is there seems to be that then other members can try and help if a FAA isn't available.
Therefore we may aswell not have the board and just a PM service (as that is basically what it would be anyway) which unfortunatly the FAA's can't really cope with (not through lack of ability but lack of staff)

Ali xox

But there are plenty of people on RYL who have registered First Aid certificates or are nurses/training to be nurses. It wouldn't be hard to find people to also become FAA's if people took the time to scan certificates/degrees etc in or send them in if necessary to Harley. That excuse is always used but there are plenty of people around more than willing to help/become an FAA.

But saying that, there's enough articles to not even warrant FAA's. The guides are helpful enough. I think a PM service would be good.
But that's just my opinion.

I also like Sarah (control freak's) idea of keeping the OD/SI threads to FAA's only and the general ones for all members. I mean, when i used to go on the board a lot some people posted problems about sinuses, and i've done lots of research on sinuses/had a sinus operation/spoken to ENT doctors about it, so i felt able to give advice. I'm sure the same goes for people who have suffered illnesses/injuries themselves and are able to offer advice to people who post about that specific illness/injury.

Acrasia, i completely agree. I just know that someone in another thread about the First Aid board said Harley/mods have to check qualifications etc.. etc.. before someone can be a FAA or something like that? So basically making it pointless asking for more FAA to be recruited so to speak.

Ali xox

see.. this is a huge problem i have.. the FAA are so because they are TRAINED.. they have certificates and such like. they know what they are talking about.

I dont think its right for ordinary members ro reply to the FA posts, because then
a) why do we have FAA in the first place and
b) we get back to the 'members diagnosing members' issue.

Ive read threads in there before where people have said 'it sounds like you could be having a miscarriage'. Im sorry, but if youre not a medical proffesional, i dont think you should be allowed to candidly banter that kind of talk around.

As for a solution.. i have no idea.

My point exactly.

or... if someone said 'i had the same symptoms when i was pregnant, and my baby was fine.' and then the member, based on that experience from someone else didnt get help, and they DID lose their baby....

But Charlie - this is primarily a self harm website - we shouldn't be dealing with abortion/miscarriage questions in the first place...

well it that case, the FAF is void. there is information on what to do in most self harm/od scenarios, and it doesnt change.

there are support forums for other things and for every day members opinions and experiences with stuff.

xx

'bout time someone agreed with me :P

Was there not a discussion a while ago about the First Aid Forum somewhere?
I'm so deifnitely sure this debate ahs been had before but nothing came of it, obviously.

Anyway, I've always thought the FAF was pointless. You can't post anything too specific and they can't examine you, it's pretty much just people posting saying "Go see a doctor" you don't need a whole forum devoted to that.

^^ Yes there was, but i think it was locked because there was apparently too much "backlash" towards the FAA's. Even though really it wasn't about the FAA's but the FAF itself.
I also don't see the point of it to be honest but i highly doubt it'll ever get deleted (sadly).

i hope my posts before didnt come across as slagging off the first aid guys... i think they have the hardest job here.. just because the advice they give doesnt really have capacity for anything other than solid fact.

Worrrd.

From the view point of a poor American...

I've occasionally posted on the FAF, and been told to see a doctor. And when that happens, I generally just say, "Oh, well, thanks", and don't see a doctor. It's not because I'm trying to get attention, it's not because I'm trying to make people feel bad, it's because I can't afford the doctors appointment. So if I'm in a non-emergency situation, I'd like tips on how to deal with things myself. (Of course, a lot of it is stickied, but, sometimes one has specific inquiries).

So, as opposed to killing the FAF, and as opposed to putting the burden on the FAA's, I think there should just be an increased Mod presense, if possible, to shut down threads where the person repeatedly posts that they're in an emergency situation, but won't take any advice.

Just my lame 2 cents...

Then shouldn't all the forums that don't deal directly with self harm go? Like general chat and the picture forum and stuff? This site is no longer just for self harm. It's expanded past that.


I think an increased mod presence is a good idea :)


I also think that people should start thinking about what they're doing before they do it. If you're going to take an overdose then you have to be prepared to face the consequences. If you're going to harm yourself and it needs stitches, then again, you need to be prepared to face the consequences. People need to start taking responsbility for their behaviour. Instead of whining that the FA board is useless or doesn't help them becasue the FAA's are telling them they need to see a doctor or go to hospital when they really just want attention... if you don't actually want advice, don't ask for it. Don't ask for it if you're not going to take it.

Yeah...

/rant

In terms of the FAF being used for First Aid questions relating to SI/ODs, there is enough information in stickies and articles to cover what needs to be done in the majority of those situations (obviously in all ODs the advice is to go to the hospital). But there are ways of SI-ing which may not be covered in enough detail on the main site, or there may be extra information which could be relevant to the query which is not covered in the articles.
Personally I've found the FAF useful for general medical queries as a way of determining whether a problem is worth going to the doctor about or whether it is something I can treat myself. It's also helpful in some situations to hear other people's experiences which is something you don't really get through articles etc. It's important for everyone who posts on the FAF to remember that other members' experiences do not necessarily mean that their situation will be the same (especially important in cases of possible miscarriage etc as mentioned earlier in this thread) and ensure that if there is any possible risk they seek medical help asap.

In terms of OD posts asking for advice, maybe instead of making a rule against refusing to get help just don't reply to them. After one reply has been made advising the person to go to the hospital, no one else has to reply because all the advice we can give has been offered. Threads which end up getting loads of posts are only going to fuel any attention seeking behaviour. If someone needs support to make the decision to go, suggest the thread is moved to a support forum so they can get more appropriate posts.

QFT

I've only just got home from work and don't have time to reply to everything here, but just to let you know, we've been asking for some structural changes to the FAF for months now, including making it invisible unless you are a registered member. Harley keeps telling us it will be done, and he hasn't done it yet. There is nothing we (the FAAs) can do at this point but keep bugging him.

Also, to be a FAF we basically require that you are a Paramedic, or at least a second year nursing or medical student. (Not Pre med, medical). First aid certs, St. John's Ambulance certs, nursing assistants etc are not qualified enough. There is an application process, and you must provide proof you are who you say you are by providing copies of your cert/license/school transcript and ways to check it. For example, I sent Harley a scanned copy of my paramedic license along with a link to the paramedic database in my state where he could look me up by name.

FAAs also have to be VERY stable. If you have any history of phishing for information, or using your medical knowledge to hurt yourself you are either disqualified or put on hold until a significant length of time has passed.

Those requirements drastically cut down on the number of viable applicants on RYL. On top of that, some people who are qualified don't want to be a FAA. It is a ton of work, and a lot of responsibility and not everyone is interested in dedicating that much time and effort to this place.

As for an increased mod presence, there are some...issues...with the vbulletin software that make it so that the FAAs no longer known when something has been post reported. This has led to some issues because for a long time we dealt with all our own post reports, and now we can't. For a while post reports were being looked over I think because the mods thought we were dealing with them, and we couldn't see them. Again, Harley has said he is working on it, but thats been the word for months.

I don't have an issue with an increased mod presence in the FAF, but the FAAs keep more detailed records of edited/deleted posts than the mods do. In the past, mods who have come into the FAF have neglected to follow our standards for record keeping causing a lot of irritation on both sides.

The FAF has grown and expanded beyond what it was originally intended to be. However, so has the rest of RYL. At this point unless we are going to do an overhaul of the whole site, we are not going to be able to make significant changes to one board.

The only comment I have to make is that this has nothing to do with an 'increased mod presence' theres no rule surrounding posting these threads, so therefor you could have a million mods around and we would be closing them. Maybe think about that first?Then if there is a rule and we dont act on it, then you can start on about the lack of mod presence.