Triggering (Suicide) - "BPD not a mental illness" grrrrrrr!
I am so upset and angry about this comment and need reassurance from other sufferers of BPD that it is NOT a "controllable illness".
I have just been discharged from hospital and whilst I was there I lost it at one of the nurses...he is the nurse that was on duty the night that my friend killed herself in his unit.
I was so upset and he said to me "at the end of the day the repsonsibility is on you guys" (being the patients) and I yelled back "no! the reason she was in hospital was because she could not keep herself safe, therefore it was your responsibility!"...out of line I know and I apologise a thousand times and still feel really bad but...
after that incident I got told that I was on my last chance for "abusing" and traumatising" staff and that if I even talked back to the nurses I would be transferred to an adult ward...
I thought this was extrememly unfair considering I have seen patients physcially abuse and hit staff and personally attack them and they have no punishment whats so ever...when I brought this up I was told "yeah but those patients have a mental illness and psychosis and cannot control their behaviour where as you can".....ummmm OUCH!
I said to her in that case if I don't have a real mental illness then you need to make me a voluntary patient (i had been sectioned) and discharged as I do not meet the criteria for being section...if my mental illness is not real!
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, sorry, just upset and angry and feel misunderstood...bpd much?
What do you guys think? Am I over-reacting?
Last edited by lozstar88 : 04-10-2009 at 10:31 AM.
Reason: ...
I'm not text book smart but I'm street smart....well sesame street smart anyway :p
I <3 you Lozza- my beautiful twin and care bear! Keep holding on. 'Whorejay'- u are my gorgeous partner in crime, who I will never give up. They can't seperate us! loooove you. I <3 Frizzly forever!!! ur my nite light R.I.P my beautiful angel Kat, you will always be in my heart. 27/03/91-31/08/09 xxx Sweetdreams baby girl xxx
Sorry you had such a horrible experience with this nurse.
And about your friend... ((safe hugs)) if ok
We believe that borderline, along with all other mental disorders, is a controllable illness. With medication and therapy most mental illness can be controlled. But clearly those that are in hospital aren't at that stage yet.
But that doesn't really apply to your situation, given that you were in hospital.
"yeah but those patients have a mental illness"
That is ridiculous, you do have a mental illness - and he you blew his bluff when you said 'then discharge me' Because honestly, if you didn't have a mental illnes you wouldn't be there. Just like you said.
Some of the things he said sounded pretty stupid, but it is true, when it all comes down to it, if someone is set on offing themselves - in or out of hospital, unless they are completely incapacitated - it's likely they will find a way. So in one respect he was right, there are some people that are going to try, and some who will succeed no matter the circumstances.
Some people with psychosis are so far out of touch with reality that they truly cannot control their behavior - they may not even know that who they are attacking aren't people who they believe are against them, but nurses there to look after them. Whereas most people with borderline at least have that understanding - that basic grip on reality.
We think that while he was out of line, he did have some fact to base it on... But that doesn't mean you don't have a right to feel angry, misunderstood and upset.
The nurse, to me, sound very unprofessional.
He had no right to rant at you like that and if BPD wasn't a mental illness then you wouldn't be there in first place.
I just wouldn't talk to that nurse again. Talk to another one that isn't so rude.
I want to kiss the bottom of the ocean before I burst through its surface into the sunlight, otherwise I will always be wondering about what was left unseen at the bottom
i'm tired of chasing my dreams. i'm just gonna ask where they're going, and hook up with them later.
I am not too savvy with how to quote online, so apologies if this goes wrong....
Quote:
I was so upset and he said to me "at the end of the day the repsonsibility is on you guys" (being the patients) and I yelled back "no! the reason she was in hospital was because she could not keep herself safe, therefore it was your responsibility!"...out of line I know and I apologise a thousand times and still feel really bad but...
The bit he said that I've bolded, I think was absolutely and utterly disgusting. He had no right to say that and there is no truth in it either, however there is truth in what you said, that it was his responsiblity. It may not have been right to have said it to him, but he was a thousand times more out of order to have said that to you in the first place. It was not your fault hun, it was no one's fault, and I am so glad you are out of that hospital because it sounds like a terrible place.
I had a similar situation in hospital, I had been misdiagnosed with bpd, and was told I was abusive, when those with psychosis appeared to me to be more abusive not so much to the staff but to me (for instance threatening me whilst staff did not do anything, which made me angry and 'abusive' verbally towards staff). What angers me so much though, is that whilst yes people with psychosis are out of touch with reality, it does not mean that people with borderline personality disorder are any less worthy of help, you are still scared, and unwell, and in need of help. I think a part of bpd is also that you feel out of control, and I think very often people who have bpd are out of control, there is also an element of psychosis in bpd and basically what I'm trying to say is that yes I believe you have some grasp of control (just as I believe those with psychosis have some grasp of control over some of their actions too) but taht does not make you any less worthy of help.
If you wanted to make a formal complaint or get PALS involved you have every right to. How are you feeling at the moment? Is it any better being out of hospital?
The responsibility for what is 'on you guys'? I can't really comment on that until I know what he was referring to.
BPD is not a mental illness, it's a personality disorder.
I do think you overreacted but I also think that it was wrong of them to admit you to a ward where a friend of yours committed suicide, that's bound to be traumatizing for you and send you hysterical.
Making the staff feel bad for the suicide is out of order though and must be very upsetting for them, which is another reason why I don't think you should be on that ward. Suicides happen on psychiatric wards from time to time, that's just the way it is. It's impossible to keep everyone safe no matter how vigilant the staff are. Patients will get away with things at times especially if they are desperate enough, not amount of rules will stop them.
The behaviour that results of your BPD can be worthy of a section but you are more in control of your behaviour than someone with psychosis is. That's just fact.
Oh absolutely,
In no way are you any less deserving of help or support!
As you would know - there is a lot of stigma around borderline, people think they are just manipulative and attention seeking, which is absolutely not true. These people need to be educated.
What he said was very unprofessional and out of line, by all means make a complaint if you feel up to it.
Sorry he was such an arse.
Um... the whole point of BPD is being unstable... not really in control... hence the impulsive behaviors... the severe mood swings... mood swings you're not in control of,because not one of us can control how we feel... we just feel it.
I hate comparing things, like "this" is worse than "that", or "that" is better than "this", at the end of the day, WE ARE STRUGGLING... All of us, we deserve support, we deserve help, and whether something is worse than another isn't the case; the case is supposed to be individual, the case is supposed to be that we are struggling and need help and support, whether it's something small to someone else, or something big to someone else.
Someone with psychosis could be in more control than someone with BPD and vice versa, depending upon the severity, depending upon the individual, depending upon what is going on & etc. But what does it matter? At the end of it, the person is still struggling...
I think that person was out of order, and I think you've every right to be upset. *cuddles*
Um... the whole point of BPD is being unstable... not really in control... hence the impulsive behaviors... the severe mood swings... mood swings you're not in control of,because not one of us can control how we feel... we just feel it.
I hate comparing things, like "this" is worse than "that", or "that" is better than "this", at the end of the day, WE ARE STRUGGLING... All of us, we deserve support, we deserve help, and whether something is worse than another isn't the case; the case is supposed to be individual, the case is supposed to be that we are struggling and need help and support, whether it's something small to someone else, or something big to someone else.
Someone with psychosis could be in more control than someone with BPD and vice versa, depending upon the severity, depending upon the individual, depending upon what is going on & etc. But what does it matter? At the end of it, the person is still struggling...
I think that person was out of order, and I think you've every right to be upset. *cuddles*
The responsibility for what is 'on you guys'? I can't really comment on that until I know what he was referring to.
BPD is not a mental illness, it's a personality disorder.
I do think you overreacted but I also think that it was wrong of them to admit you to a ward where a friend of yours committed suicide, that's bound to be traumatizing for you and send you hysterical.
Making the staff feel bad for the suicide is out of order though and must be very upsetting for them, which is another reason why I don't think you should be on that ward. Suicides happen on psychiatric wards from time to time, that's just the way it is. It's impossible to keep everyone safe no matter how vigilant the staff are. Patients will get away with things at times especially if they are desperate enough, not amount of rules will stop them.
The behaviour that results of your BPD can be worthy of a section but you are more in control of your behaviour than someone with psychosis is. That's just fact.
Reread Lolstar's post, the nurse meant (from what I have read) that it was the responsibility of the patients that her friend died.
I think if I was well and someone said that to me I would freak out, let alone if I was unwell and in hospital.
Also what is your source to personality disorders not being mental illnesses? And I agree with Pup, it is unfair to make comparisons.
SOrry if this comes across as attacking, I Don't mean it to be so, but I am very concerned about the situation.
I didn't take it as an attack at all, it's fine. I don't type things out in an effort to have everyone agree, was just saying what I think.
A personality disorder is different to an illness, that is all I meant. I didn't say a personality disorder is less severe than an illness at all, it's a difference not a difference in severity.
We think it means that it comes down to the individual concerned. That meaning, that it was the responsibility of the friend who passed.
Not the other patients - that makes no sense.
I'm not sure where I stand on this. I think that personality disorders are mental illnesses, or are becoming to be regarded so in modern thinking. Once upon a time people may have thought personality disorders were entirely "learned" behaviours, but now it is becoming more apparent that they can have a biological basis too.
However, we do essentially have to be responsible for what we do to ourselves. We make that choice. But your friend, like you said, was on a ward because she was unwell and needed help to take responsibility for herself - therefore, some of the responsibility lay with the staff. Unfortunately, it would be fairly impossible for the staff to completely protect her from suicide if she didn't tell them how suicidal she was. Only knowing how high her risks were could the staff have put her on constant obs (if she did make them aware, then they should have reacted with appropriate treatment). Obviously someone who is intent on suicide won't tell anyone they feel this way, which is why, tragically, suicides occur.
Regardless of that, you were angry, distressed and emotional about your friend's death. Anyone, BPD or otherwise is likely to react the way you did, and I totally disagree that it was a purely "borderline" response. Many people who are grieving blame others. You shouldn't feel that you have to cover this up and be threatened to "behave".
About psychosis. That's an interesting one actually. The last time I was in hospital, the builders had just put metal grids onto the bits where the windows opened. Part of the reason for this is to stop people throwing objects out of the windows and damaging the staff's cars, as had happened in the past. I was asking a nurse I was close to about this (because I hate the metal grids; they cut off your last contact with the outside world and make the environment suffocating - unfortunately they're necessary) and she told me that even people on section for acute episodes of mental illness, like psychosis, can be held responsible and be prosecuted for damage to property, because whether they're ill or not, they still actually know the difference between right and wrong.
I'm not sure, that's just what she said. It's difficult to know I guess, and like someone said, it's different for everyone. I know when I have psychosis I still know the difference between right and wrong, but maybe not everyone does.
Indeed.
The very problem of mental illness is that it distorts reality or perceptions of reality.
When gripped by paranoia, terror, fear of abandonment, rage, extreme helplessness; mental illness diagnosis or not, we can all 'lose touch with reality checking' and believe that the most extreme measures which we would never even consider in our 'right mind' seem the only way to deal with something that feels a threat to our emotional or physical survival.
I think it's unhelpful to say psychosis is mental illness when personality disorder is not. It compartmentalises things which really cannot be compartmentalised. The original thing of borderline was that it was the border between neurosis and psychosis. Whilst not everyone agrees with this now, and it may not fit everyone with borderline diagnosis, it can relate to many people. Lots of people with borderline have acute psychotic episodes. Sure, they may have insight and be able to see that the way they're behaving isn't ok. But the whole thing is that you're powerless to intervene because the distorted reality has control and you're stuck. Good psychotherapy can help build a bridge between this so you've got more control and your mind is less split. The trouble is that as defence mechanisms we have, over the years, made part of our mind's 'out of reach' much like wounded animals that will attack blindly when they feel threatened, even when the person is actually trying to help. Decent treatment can help you safely access those out of reach parts and integrate them and feel more in control.
Borderline isn't the only pd with psychosis symptoms. Schizotypal, paranoid, both of these include some kind of loss of touch with reality on one level or another.
Plus the fact that depression is pretty much part and parcel of any of the personality disorders.
Yes, we do need to take responsibility for ourselves and our feelings and behaviours. But most of us need help to do this!
Things aren't black and white, and in the heat of the moment when things feel out of control, all of us, nurses included, can fall into persecutory and black and white views.
My point is that any mental illness can, with time and support, be brought more under the individual's conscious awareness, and with that the behaviours that result can be brought under more control. This works best when carried out in a compassionate, not punitive, way.
Everyone is at a different stage of recovery and emotional maturity with this, and this needs to be taken on board sensitively by treatment staff and not judged.
no nat at all i think u had every right doctors and nurses never treat patients with respect the dnt care if ur mental health is unstable they try and get u out asap i dont blame u you stood up 4 ur self and thats what u should do
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxtake care
Indeed.
The very problem of mental illness is that it distorts reality or perceptions of reality.
When gripped by paranoia, terror, fear of abandonment, rage, extreme helplessness; mental illness diagnosis or not, we can all 'lose touch with reality checking' and believe that the most extreme measures which we would never even consider in our 'right mind' seem the only way to deal with something that feels a threat to our emotional or physical survival.
I think it's unhelpful to say psychosis is mental illness when personality disorder is not. It compartmentalises things which really cannot be compartmentalised. The original thing of borderline was that it was the border between neurosis and psychosis. Whilst not everyone agrees with this now, and it may not fit everyone with borderline diagnosis, it can relate to many people. Lots of people with borderline have acute psychotic episodes. Sure, they may have insight and be able to see that the way they're behaving isn't ok. But the whole thing is that you're powerless to intervene because the distorted reality has control and you're stuck. Good psychotherapy can help build a bridge between this so you've got more control and your mind is less split. The trouble is that as defence mechanisms we have, over the years, made part of our mind's 'out of reach' much like wounded animals that will attack blindly when they feel threatened, even when the person is actually trying to help. Decent treatment can help you safely access those out of reach parts and integrate them and feel more in control.
Borderline isn't the only pd with psychosis symptoms. Schizotypal, paranoid, both of these include some kind of loss of touch with reality on one level or another.
Plus the fact that depression is pretty much part and parcel of any of the personality disorders.
Yes, we do need to take responsibility for ourselves and our feelings and behaviours. But most of us need help to do this!
Things aren't black and white, and in the heat of the moment when things feel out of control, all of us, nurses included, can fall into persecutory and black and white views.
My point is that any mental illness can, with time and support, be brought more under the individual's conscious awareness, and with that the behaviours that result can be brought under more control. This works best when carried out in a compassionate, not punitive, way.
Everyone is at a different stage of recovery and emotional maturity with this, and this needs to be taken on board sensitively by treatment staff and not judged.
we can all 'lose touch with reality checking' and believe that the most extreme measures which we would never even consider in our 'right mind' seem the only way to deal with something that feels a threat to our emotional or physical survival.
I think this sums it up. i have never had a psychotic episode or anything like it, however, i lose touch with reality frequently. my distorted perception of the world affects my decisions and interactions all the time. I developed a distorted perception of the world from childhood abuse/trauma etc etc. I am not always out of touch, but when i am feeling really vulnerable or scared or angry or sad, i am out of touch. not in a dissociative way, but in a real way. like...i know she is mad at me because i said the wrong thing etc.... when in fact that person may not be mad at me at all. that is me not being in touch with reality. in those moments i so wholeheartedly believe my reality that i do not even check with someone else to verify my belief.
so yeah....i can be disconnected from reality. and sometimes i am not in control of my behavior. sometimes my behavior controls me. its all based on the individual.
a disorder is a disorder. it means exactly what it says. whether that is a disorder that can be controlled with medication or therapy or whatever. its still distress and an inability to manage life with the skills/tools you have.
i don't like to debate the who's worse than who argument. no one ever wins. mostly people get upset.
Loz...if you are upset, you are completely entitled to be upset. try to do something good for yourself today. you deserve to get well and be happy and healthy. if you can't believe that, then let me believe it for you. *hugs*
R.I.P my beautiful angel Kat, you will always be in my heart. 27/03/91-31/08/09 xxx Sweetdreams baby girl xxx
