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Old 10-03-2013, 07:29 AM   #41
Isoverity
 
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Originally Posted by Buttons. View Post
Unfortunately I worry that (and this isn't a stab at American people are anyone else) that unfortunately as a very well publicised ally of America, which is a country very many others seem to want to take down a peg or two that we are actually more at risk of attack in some respects, also the chafing from previous years of countries who suffered under the British empire, I don't think those wounds have quite healed yet. However I don't think there's reason to go too overboard with defence, just be sensible and realistic about the risks presented and take adequate precautions, although I appreciate there is a biiiiiiiig difference in peoples' opinions on what adequate precautions are.

While we're at it, what are peoples' views on China as a potential world threat? Just curious :)

The main thing about China is that various constituent elements don't get along. The Chinese Communist Party and the Chinese military are uncomfortable with each other. The Communist Party rules like a Mafia gang. A reason the economy there is doing well is because the gov keeps wages low. The people see wealth coming in and then going over their heads. The military is hostile to the same gang. They are also very belligerent in their views of the West for various reasons. The ruling gang wants to build up military power for prestige/ambition etc but as the military gets bigger it gets more hostile. Experts view China as unstable domestically.

There have been lots of riots and last years revelation about a party official murdering a British businessman sent shock waves around China. The ruling party is seen as corrupt and feels cornered. If the military dispatches the ruling party you can expect a very belligerent force because they see paying back the West as a patriotic national quest. They have already begun establishing a "blue water" global navy. If it bothers you the US has 11 carrier groups around the world you might not feel much better if China gets its wish to replace that situation.

A more immediate problem is the Mid East. The old strongmen everyone complained about have fallen and now much worse is coming along - as it did in Iran. The roots of current Islamic groups hostile to the West go back to the founding of the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1920's - way before Israel existed. Part of their goals has been the removal of civilian leaders dictators etc and reinstituting then Caliphate .

With the Fall of Mubarak and Qaddafi, the transition of Turkey away from a more secular government and the turmoil in Syria groups like Al Qaeda and Muslim Brotherhood are excited because the barriers to their goals are falling. Add to all that the crisis of Iran going nuclear with clearly hostile intentions and its only a matter of time before the who region goes up. Iran (an ally of current Syrian leader) has promised to strike if the West gets directly involved in the civil war in Syria. The West has been moving in exactly that direction. The Sunni Muslims like in Saudi Arabia don't like the Shia Muslims in Iran and they dont want Iran going nuclear anymore than Israel does.

In Iran the nuclear facilities have been bunkered deep in the earth (with help from the Russians). No jet strike is going to get to them. Experts have predicted the use of tactical nukes. That was published in the papers 3 years ago but it was on the back pages behind the daily celebrity rubbish.

So the Mid East is really like a volcano ready to blow. There are many divisions and hostilities within the region and globally. As the old order disintegrates a Pandora's box is opening up and the West made it worse with all the silly "Arab Spring" stuff and helping all the wrong people to power. In 2001 Muslim Brothers and Al Qaeda were flying planes into buildings in New York and now Obama is sending them weapons in Syria. The whole thing is like a chapter in the suicide of the West.

Domestically Imagine what UK and Europe will be like with oil shipments cut off (France gets like 22% of its oil from Libya, Italy is like 18%). Iran ha promised to block Hormuz. US will probably lose a carrier to missiles. With the huge Muslim populations in Europe the potential for internal strife will be very high. We already saw France burn for a few months and that will look like nothing compared to what is coming.

The West has been very lazy in maintaining itself. Its capacity for self flagellation has invited contemp. Its self indulgence and decay has been at the root of its bankruptcies. Illegitimacy rates are high in the 40%. That's where a lot of money is wasted. UK's spending for military is peanuts (2.6% GDP)- as it is for much of Europe as well. The budget for NHS alone is just over 8% of GDP and then you have education (6%) and pensions etc.



U.S. ambassador: Political situation in China “very, very delicate”

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/po...e ry_delicate

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Old 10-03-2013, 12:22 PM   #42
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With the military, it probably won't be direct attacks on British soil that are the problem (unless Argentina decide to try again), but attacks on or threats to natural resources that will be the future calling of the military personnel. Countries are already trying to diversify, and are already making bases and stations near to their energy supplies to try and secure themselves for the future.

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Old 11-03-2013, 12:44 AM   #43
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Wow, I only started this thread as a rhetorical question, albeit a very important one, since it affects our future existence.

I doubt, Jack, that either North Korea or Iran (two of the biggest bad bastards on the world stage at the moment) have yet got missiles which could deliver nuclear warheads onto European capitals; but watch this space, they'll be able to develop or buy that technology before too long. And how then to counter them? Only, I suggest, by having our own capability to pour a much greater degree of nastiness back upon them should we have to do so. Which is actually just what nuclear deterrence is all about.

But what is really frightening is the prospect of Islamist states saying "Allah Akhbar", (God is great) and launching into an attack in which they don't care about any repercussions of here on earth - it'll all be OK in heaven. (Where they'll then get twenty or is it twenty thousand virgins - God what a frightening prospect - as a reward ...)

And, Buttons, I have to challenge your assertion that there is now serious resentment as a result of what went on in the former British Empire. Maybe, but we very often unified disparate tribal groupings and created nations which stand in their own right today. And some of them, just occasionally, even admit that our former colonialism did them a lot of good. We could of course give up any pretence of being a significant European nation and retire to the sidelines like, say, Norway (no offence intended). Meanwhile I continue to personally believe that we must defend ourselves as a first priority.

Tony.




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Old 11-03-2013, 03:23 AM   #44
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I doubt, Jack, that either North Korea or Iran (two of the biggest bad bastards on the world stage at the moment) have yet got missiles which could deliver nuclear warheads onto European capitals; but watch this space, they'll be able to develop or buy that technology before too long. And how then to counter them? Only, I suggest, by having our own capability to pour a much greater degree of nastiness back upon them should we have to do so. Which is actually just what nuclear deterrence is all about.

They already have missiles. Last year Korea successfully launched a missile into space (and remember China helps NK and NK helps Iran)

"North Korea shook the international political sphere Wednesday when it appeared to successfully launch an intercontinental ballistic missile..."

http://www.dailytech.com/North+Korea...ticle29400.htm

North Korea has already sold the same missiles to Iran

"WikiLeaks: Iran 'obtains North Korea missiles which can strike Europe'
Iran has obtained ballistic missiles from North Korea that could be used to strike Western Europe, the leaked files suggest."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ke-Europe.html


Iran also has thousands of medium range missiles (1200km) that can be fitted with nukes

"Iran has missiles to carry nuclear warheads"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-warheads.html


Also keep in mind Iran has learned to fire missiles from boats. They can fire a missile from 200 miles offshore. They have practiced using a scud missile for an EMP blast to knock out electric, computer, mobile phones etc. They also have biological warheads.

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Old 11-03-2013, 06:59 PM   #45
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It all looks pretty frightening, Jack, and all the more reason to have an effective defence. Of course governments are forced to make difficult choices as to priorities, but that's what they courted the electorate about before they were elected into office (and if you can't stand the heat, don't even think about going into the kitchen!)

Of course I have not the remotest idea as to UK's plans for effective defence over the next 10 or 20 years - but I hope to hell that there are such plans being made and that the Chiefs of Staff of the Armed Services are even beginning to stand up to the politicians. I'm actually surprised and disappointed that there have been no resignations by the Admirals, Generals and Air Marshals. And I'd love to see some of the Joint Intelligence Committee's assessments of the past few years (which quite rightly I never will) and assess for myself the extent to which the politicians have placed expediency over reality.

Tony (see you up there among all those virgins when the Islamic militants have had their way!)




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Old 11-03-2013, 11:05 PM   #46
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And I'd love to see some of the Joint Intelligence Committee's assessments of the past few years (which quite rightly I never will) and assess for myself the extent to which the politicians have placed expediency over reality.

Tony (see you up there among all those virgins when the Islamic militants have had their way!)

I'm not ready for paradise yet. A cave in Scotland looks better right now even though I prefer falafel over haggis.

As for reality I find people and institutions are less in touch with it. We had major investment banks go broke overnight because their computer models were wrong and they lost track of their actual worth. Analysts in a back room discovered they were over-leveraged by billions. I find US intelligence equally inept and cant believe we are helping the Muslim Brotherhood come into power. Countries pretty much stumbled into WW I and I see too much of the same kind of stumbling going on now but with much higher tensions. If there are any good caves near you let me know

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