I understand that these questions aren't directed at me, but I would like to join the debate. It also seems to me that Enthused is perhaps rather upset with this discussion.
Originally Posted by
Harley's Dad
1. What is a toff, since you've chosen to use the term? Is it merely someone who went to a private school and might speak with an "educated" accent? If so, is that some sort of crime? Why should someone who fits that description be automatically regarded as some sort of enemy? Or do you assume that they, by their very nature, are bent upon grinding down the poorest in our society as a matter of principle? If so, what an unfair and unjustified bias! It is used far too often, in today's world, as a derogatory term. On what possible basis?
I don't think it has anything to do with having a private education, nor an "educated" accent. I would like to think that I am well educated and have a quite attractive accent, though I would not describe myself as a "toff". I believe the term "toff" is used more to imply those who seem to have no understanding of the "everyday lives", people who have not had to live in the "real world" for lack of a better term.
For example: David Cameron recently announced the increase to the lower tax bracket to £10,500. However, in doing so he made quite an insulting and misjudged comment that with the extra money people in the lowest wage bracket could "help a dad afford those trainers for his son or help a mum celebrate her daughter's birthday with a meal out."
It is aggravating to those in low paid jobs to hear someone speak about things they are so out of touch with. Many people are struggling to afford rising rents, electricity and gas prices, food prices. However much he refuses to believe it, wages are not increasing at the same rate as inflation and people are feeling the squeeze. It is, therefore, out of touch to believe that people struggling to afford basic needs would spend their money so frivolously.
Originally Posted by
Harley's Dad
2. Is it a crime to be a millionaire (if you've worked your way by your own efforts and initiative and paid your taxes)? Or are they also determined to claw their way upward by grinding down the poor? It might be worth remembering that this sort of individual generates huge numbers of jobs and pays massive amounts of tax (to help subsidise the extravagances of government and support the less well off).
It is not a crime to be a millionaire. No one has ever said that as far as I am aware. It is important that we encourage rich tax payers to stay as they provide a huge boost to our economy. It is also not a crime to be poor. For every society there are social classes, some higher, some low. Each pays for society what they can afford, millionaires can pay a substantially larger amount than the poor. However, being in such financial security also allows such people the ability to use the system to their benefit. Every millionaire has an accountant working hard to make sure that their money stays in their pockets. As we all know, tax EVASION is illegal, tax AVOIDANCE isn't. And many rich people take advantage of this. Someone earning £10,000 a year doesn't have the same ability. Millionaires may pay higher tax rates but they are also given opportunities to avoid these as well.
Originally Posted by
Harley's Dad
3. If society is so unfair, shouldn't everyones wealth therefore be totalled up and then divided equally among every member of society. This would certainly cut the millionaires down to size, and also the parents of those toffs who might have saved and struggled to send their children to the school which they felt was best for them. And the wasters who had never contributed anything to society would be just as "well-off" as everyone else. Gosh, wouldn't that be fair! (Though I suspect that many of those working their socks off on the oil rigs out of Aberdeen just might disagree).
I think this is an unfair statement to make in a debate and doesn't really aid to anything. You're basically talking Communism here, which is in no way what anyone has suggested. I also have an issue with the term "wasters" who "never contribute anything to society". This is just as derogatory as the term "toff" which you found so unappealing earlier. You are making a huge bias about a social group you probably have very little experience of.
Imagine you grow up in the poorest area of Glasgow, you're parent's never even owned a cooker, you're dyslexic so your school never really bothered with your education. You leave with little to no education and so no one will hire you, and you don't have any experience anyway. You're surrounded by alcoholism and drug abuse, it's something you've grown up with your whole life. You're on benefits because what else can you do? Your parents chucked you out as soon as you turned 16 and have been living in a hostel, waiting for social housing because very few private places accept housing benefit and even if they did you've no way of getting the deposit. And then someone you don't know, someone who owns a nice house in a nice area. Someone who has a family who loves them and supports them turns around and calls you a "waster" who "never contributes anything to society." Is that entirely fair? People are not born "wasters" they are MADE by a combination of environmental and social factors. No baby is born looking up to the world thinking "I'm going to do nothing with my life." It is unfair to judge those struggling just as it is unfair to judge those who have worked hard and made something of themselves. Working hard doesn't always get you anywhere further than the next street. If it did we'd all be millionaires.
But you are right.
EVERYONE feels hard done by. Not just the poor, working class. There has been equal amounts of moaning from high earners and millionaires. The lower class are not the only one's moaning, but perhaps the only ones you are listening to and judging.