RYL Forums - View Single Post

Stellata · 22-01-2010, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no reason

Katie, I think what you need to take from this thread is that people recognise that you are ill and struggle alot but that you have the strength and support in place. It doesn't mean you are any less ill just because you haven't been in hospital, section or otherwise.
...............I saw people in there with my illness who are in there with bpd and have been in there months and months and how it has somehow taken away their own coping methods and made them institutionalised, their behaviour is accepted when it should not be, it should be challenged. Yes, in a way, they were immature despite being much older than me. ...

I do take that from this thread, thanks Carrie.
Because I have borderline/dependent pd tendencies [also avoidant. lovely mixture!] that very much applies. My treatment is to enable me to develop independence and social skills and have relationships. This is where therapeutic communities are so good - although with the right kind of support network in place, life 'outside' can be like a therapeutic community. How can I learn to cope with the unpredictability of random strangers if I'm not around them?
I've always had a degree of immaturity in an emotional-dependency type sense. Being 'forced' to engage with adults my age and older, in small doses, as well as younger people without feeling the same age as them [hard when you have a teenage type part!] is all part of it.
I've not explained this as very well as I'd hoped. But I hope it is at least a bit clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunshine

I have been in hospital both on sections and informal but i think it is so great that you have never been in one! it shows strenght that i did not have (when i was so against living) and you should be very proud of that.

I was thinking a bit on these lines earlier today. How therapy and homeopathy is supporting the nurturance of my wish to live. Like Frued's Life Drive and Death Drive. Bringing me more to life. That is what good support does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadow-light

But I think alot of the time it's not a matter of how bad or ill someone is but how well they are coping and what is seen as being best for them that determines their treatment or hospitalisation. The fact that you have not been hospitalised just shows that people recognise your strength and ability to cope

Not degree of illness, but how you cope with that illness. Totally. I know there are exceptions, but that is definitely something I really agree with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artychik

I can see your point about how it seems to be a bit of a competition as to how many diagnoses, sections, meds you've been on etc (although that thought makes me despair)
but - you have managed to stay out of hospital, you have a treatment team, you are actively engaging with the support you are receiving, I think that says a lot about your inner resources and really, good on you. It certainly doesn't invalidate your experiences or your suffering.
There are not just two options of either being totally fine or being hospitalised. There is an awful lot in between. :)

Thank you. :) Indeed it isn't all about extremes. There is so much inbetween. And yeah, the despair. The competition mindset. Part of me is that way inclined, but not all of me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Degausser

I think it's fantastic that you've never been hospitalised, it really shows a lot of courage and inner strength that I'm sure many of us would like to have. Personally I believe the admissions I had when I was a bit younger for depression/self harm stuff, before psychosis made hospital unavoidable, would have been avoidable had I been a little maturer, been a bit more of a fighter and engaged in therapy better. Sometimes I do sense a bit of competition on RYL, but honestly, for me feeling 'inferior' for never being sectioned is easier to deal with than causing myself more harm and getting sectioned, hospitals are horrible places at the best of times!

I agree with you totally on the part I've bolded. Me too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShyGirlEiana

Katie, I can really relate to this. I struggle with feeling like my problems are not as legitimate as other people's because I've *only* been diagnosed with depression or because I've *only* been emotionally abused.
And part of me knows that's ridiculous - only depression? only emotional abuse? There's no "only" about it! Looking at another person with those same issues, I'd never deny the seriousness of them. I know how much they can affect a person's life!
Yet, I still feel like my problems are less legitimate, less real. Like I'm exaggerating and somebody's going to see right through me and tell me I'm just being dramatic and to get over it. I guess those fears probably stem from back in high school when I wasn't taken seriously.
It's like my problems were invalidated so much that now I crave that validation. I need to know that someone takes me seriously. That my problems are legitimate, and I'm not just making it all up.
But it seems like no matter how much validation I get, it's never enough. I'm still afraid someone's going to turn around and accuse me of making it all up. So I can understand the wanting a label or wanting to be hospitalized as proof that things really are that bad.

I absolutely know what you're talking about. Me too.
I think that this frame of thinking, wanting proof etc, can come about when one hasn't been listened to for a lot of their life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by what_the?

Wow.
I don't think that hospital admission is anything to be proud of, at all. I think that it can actually be a dangerous thing, making people iller, removing all responsibility.
I know that when I have been in hospital, I've found it very hard to adjust to being back in the "real world" even only after a couple of days, because everything just seems so so difficult, you don't have people there all the time to do things for you. So I want to echo everyone else and say that it's a great reflection on your strength that you've avoided hospital, and if anything it shows that your struggles have been as hard, if not harder than those who have been admitted.

I know for me, that the fact that I find it hard to be in the 'real world' due to my sensitivities and the trauma and abuse caused thought-distortions with the resulting behaviours, is significant and a just cause for keeping me in the community - how much harder would it be to adjust to life exposed etc if I had been 'protected' from it's vulnerabilities and responsibilities for even a while?.. It's already hard to be out in life, so being away from it and going back to it - defeats the object, really.
And, thank you. :) Struggles indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherPlaceToFall

i dont think you can define levels of illness.
my view on the young people being hospitalised (from personal experience) is that they are too young and immature to 'cope' on the outside.
I mean, if i had tried, i could have coped and probably been better if i had stayed home but at the time i didnt want help, i didnt think of consequences, i didnt care. i would be in and out of general hospital each week and in the end psychiatric care was all that could keep me from doing that. but it was immaturity, it wasnt that i was 'extremely ill'...i was ill but not terribly.
Now i can sit and think about consequences of my actions, think of other people and find other coping measures other than self destructive methods that landed me where i was before. I still struggle with all those behaviours but cope alot better.
I dont know if this makes sense?
I think young people will look back and have regrets about the sections and fighting against people who are trying to help.
I certainly do, even though i took a positive thing away from each admission i wish i had never wasted so much of my teenage life in hospital.
So i dont think hospital can define peoples level of illness.
but i do think people that havent been in hospital and suffer with such complex problems such as yourself are so inspirational. I know you struggle so much but you are still here and you still battle through each problem as it arises.

Thank you for the insights, that's really helpful, it helps me understand more. And, it makes sense. :)
Also, thank you. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by frozenfairytale

I think so many young people have been in the hospital either because they have met overzealous professionals who think hospital is the way to stop mental illness. Or the fact that the world has changed and many teenagers have seen suicide as almost normal and so they become more and more determined to do it no matter what anyone says, making hospital the only possible resort to keep them from dying or seriously harming themselves.
It's that the stigma isn't as much there as it was twenty years ago (it is, but there are circles of friends who accept mental illness almost as cool whereas that didn't really exist before), so I think young people are more comfortable really hurting themselves. That's not to say their problems aren't serious, but I think they have less restraint since it's more accepted in some subcultures, so they are in need of more desperate measures. so they are probably ill, but they probably wouldn't have actually acted on it quite as much had it not been for society.
And it can become a competition thing among teens who feel they have nothing else. I don't judge people for that, it's just an unfortunate turn of young society. It also could be a form of rebellion. Teens are naturally prone to rebel against their parents/authority, and so acting out on suicidal thoughts rather than seeking help can be a form of rebellion. I am NOT saying this is the case with all teens/young adults, but I think it might explain your question as to why so many young people have been through intensive treatments.

Thanks also for your insights.
Yes, there is so much less stigma than 20 years ago. Totally. Even in the past 10 years or so even.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vetty

i think it is brilliant that you have stayed at home. staying in the real world must really help you deal with your illness, and help your recovery. hospitals never really help anyone, they just artifically keep people safe while they can't do it for themselves.
i think it also shows the gap between the care that the private sector provides and the nhs.
well done!

Thank you, and, I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadow-light

.... seems to imply that anyone who has not been hospitalised is automaticatally not as bad off as someone who has been hospitalised.
I don't think that is right. People can go through EXACTLY the same experiances or EXACTLY the same diagnosis and deal with it differently.

Absolutely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Droplet

This whole post makes me feel a little insecure, angry? Something, I'm not quite sure what. But I can see why that is and why it is tainted by my own experiences. I don't know where I count myself. I see myself as the one in the middle. I spent my teenage years in and out of units quite severely (but I don't know if I ever believed I was ill 'enough') and it has really messed me up. It's probably the number 1 thing on my mind a lot of the time even though I was discharged last in the summer, so this thread stirs up a lot of emotion. I think you said jealous wasn't the right word? But I feel like I have not 'made' myself, but that hospital has affected so much of my life that it has in effect 'made' a lot of me. I'm angry at that. At the hospital and at myself for letting myself go through that. But confused too - as I have genuinely had some of the best times of my life their which is really confusing and... wrong? :(

Miranda, how're you feeling about this now? I hear your anger and insecurity and confusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shine

And Katie, I'm really glad that you can finally be open and honest with your treatment team. I hope to do that someday, (if this has already been asked then apologies) have you spoken to them about your views in this thread about the severity of what you feel?

I've not spoken to my treatment team, no. The thing is that the most severe things have been in the past. The general acknowledgement is that things are difficult and I do really struggle, and that I'm slowly and steadily getting better. In therapy yesterday I started to look more clearly at my breakdown when I was 24. I basically spent a whole week in bed, barely ate, couldn't cry, and was convinced I was dying of Hodgkin's Lymphoma which was spreading into my brain and womb. I did emerge from it - I had a blood test which I MADE the doctor have done, which came back clear. But back then I was not in treatment, and not aware even what I was suffering from had a name. I was very lonely, and under a great deal of pressure at work - self and work induced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Leopard

Why is it so threatening for there to be elements of truth in both sides of this yes there can be a feeling that if you have been in hospital you are 'sicker' but also surely we should commend someone who copes with feeling so unsafe and isolated in the world and not conclude they are not struggling as much. Surely the only valid viewpoint is to listen and try to understand the heart behind what is being said after all we are all here because we need validation and connection not competition and judgement.

I agree totally. Thank you. :)

I don't know if anyone read ALL that, but if you did, well done!

22-01-2010, 01:28 PM	#77
Stellata Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London area	Quote: Originally Posted by no reason Katie, I think what you need to take from this thread is that people recognise that you are ill and struggle alot but that you have the strength and support in place. It doesn't mean you are any less ill just because you haven't been in hospital, section or otherwise. ...............I saw people in there with my illness who are in there with bpd and have been in there months and months and how it has somehow taken away their own coping methods and made them institutionalised, their behaviour is accepted when it should not be, it should be challenged. Yes, in a way, they were immature despite being much older than me. ... I do take that from this thread, thanks Carrie. Because I have borderline/dependent pd tendencies [also avoidant. lovely mixture!] that very much applies. My treatment is to enable me to develop independence and social skills and have relationships. This is where therapeutic communities are so good - although with the right kind of support network in place, life 'outside' can be like a therapeutic community. How can I learn to cope with the unpredictability of random strangers if I'm not around them? I've always had a degree of immaturity in an emotional-dependency type sense. Being 'forced' to engage with adults my age and older, in small doses, as well as younger people without feeling the same age as them [hard when you have a teenage type part!] is all part of it. I've not explained this as very well as I'd hoped. But I hope it is at least a bit clear. Quote: Originally Posted by Sunshine I have been in hospital both on sections and informal but i think it is so great that you have never been in one! it shows strenght that i did not have (when i was so against living) and you should be very proud of that. I was thinking a bit on these lines earlier today. How therapy and homeopathy is supporting the nurturance of my wish to live. Like Frued's Life Drive and Death Drive. Bringing me more to life. That is what good support does. Quote: Originally Posted by shadow-light But I think alot of the time it's not a matter of how bad or ill someone is but how well they are coping and what is seen as being best for them that determines their treatment or hospitalisation. The fact that you have not been hospitalised just shows that people recognise your strength and ability to cope Not degree of illness, but how you cope with that illness. Totally. I know there are exceptions, but that is definitely something I really agree with. Quote: Originally Posted by Artychik I can see your point about how it seems to be a bit of a competition as to how many diagnoses, sections, meds you've been on etc (although that thought makes me despair) but - you have managed to stay out of hospital, you have a treatment team, you are actively engaging with the support you are receiving, I think that says a lot about your inner resources and really, good on you. It certainly doesn't invalidate your experiences or your suffering. There are not just two options of either being totally fine or being hospitalised. There is an awful lot in between. :) Thank you. :) Indeed it isn't all about extremes. There is so much inbetween. And yeah, the despair. The competition mindset. Part of me is that way inclined, but not all of me. Quote: Originally Posted by Degausser I think it's fantastic that you've never been hospitalised, it really shows a lot of courage and inner strength that I'm sure many of us would like to have. Personally I believe the admissions I had when I was a bit younger for depression/self harm stuff, before psychosis made hospital unavoidable, would have been avoidable had I been a little maturer, been a bit more of a fighter and engaged in therapy better. Sometimes I do sense a bit of competition on RYL, but honestly, for me feeling 'inferior' for never being sectioned is easier to deal with than causing myself more harm and getting sectioned, hospitals are horrible places at the best of times! I agree with you totally on the part I've bolded. Me too! Quote: Originally Posted by ShyGirlEiana Katie, I can really relate to this. I struggle with feeling like my problems are not as legitimate as other people's because I've only been diagnosed with depression or because I've only been emotionally abused. And part of me knows that's ridiculous - only depression? only emotional abuse? There's no "only" about it! Looking at another person with those same issues, I'd never deny the seriousness of them. I know how much they can affect a person's life! Yet, I still feel like my problems are less legitimate, less real. Like I'm exaggerating and somebody's going to see right through me and tell me I'm just being dramatic and to get over it. I guess those fears probably stem from back in high school when I wasn't taken seriously. It's like my problems were invalidated so much that now I crave that validation. I need to know that someone* takes me seriously.* That my problems are legitimate, and I'm not just making it all up. But it seems like no matter how much validation I get, it's never enough. I'm still afraid someone's going to turn around and accuse me of making it all up. So I can understand the wanting a label or wanting to be hospitalized as proof that things really are that bad. I absolutely know what you're talking about. Me too. I think that this frame of thinking, wanting proof etc, can come about when one hasn't been listened to for a lot of their life. Quote: Originally Posted by what_the? Wow. I don't think that hospital admission is anything to be proud of, at all. I think that it can actually be a dangerous thing, making people iller, removing all responsibility. I know that when I have been in hospital, I've found it very hard to adjust to being back in the "real world" even only after a couple of days, because everything just seems so so difficult, you don't have people there all the time to do things for you. So I want to echo everyone else and say that it's a great reflection on your strength that you've avoided hospital, and if anything it shows that your struggles have been as hard, if not harder than those who have been admitted. I know for me, that the fact that I find it hard to be in the 'real world' due to my sensitivities and the trauma and abuse caused thought-distortions with the resulting behaviours, is significant and a just cause for keeping me in the community - how much harder would it be to adjust to life exposed etc if I had been 'protected' from it's vulnerabilities and responsibilities for even a while?.. It's already hard to be out in life, so being away from it and going back to it - defeats the object, really. And, thank you. :) Struggles indeed. Quote: Originally Posted by AnotherPlaceToFall i dont think you can define levels of illness. my view on the young people being hospitalised (from personal experience) is that they are too young and immature to 'cope' on the outside. I mean, if i had tried, i could have coped and probably been better if i had stayed home but at the time i didnt want help, i didnt think of consequences, i didnt care. i would be in and out of general hospital each week and in the end psychiatric care was all that could keep me from doing that. but it was immaturity, it wasnt that i was 'extremely ill'...i was ill but not terribly. Now i can sit and think about consequences of my actions, think of other people and find other coping measures other than self destructive methods that landed me where i was before. I still struggle with all those behaviours but cope alot better. I dont know if this makes sense? I think young people will look back and have regrets about the sections and fighting against people who are trying to help. I certainly do, even though i took a positive thing away from each admission i wish i had never wasted so much of my teenage life in hospital. So i dont think hospital can define peoples level of illness. but i do think people that havent been in hospital and suffer with such complex problems such as yourself are so inspirational. I know you struggle so much but you are still here and you still battle through each problem as it arises. Thank you for the insights, that's really helpful, it helps me understand more. And, it makes sense. :) Also, thank you. :) Quote: Originally Posted by frozenfairytale I think so many young people have been in the hospital either because they have met overzealous professionals who think hospital is the way to stop mental illness. Or the fact that the world has changed and many teenagers have seen suicide as almost normal and so they become more and more determined to do it no matter what anyone says, making hospital the only possible resort to keep them from dying or seriously harming themselves. It's that the stigma isn't as much there as it was twenty years ago (it is, but there are circles of friends who accept mental illness almost as cool whereas that didn't really exist before), so I think young people are more comfortable really hurting themselves. That's not to say their problems aren't serious, but I think they have less restraint since it's more accepted in some subcultures, so they are in need of more desperate measures. so they are probably ill, but they probably wouldn't have actually acted on it quite as much had it not been for society. And it can become a competition thing among teens who feel they have nothing else. I don't judge people for that, it's just an unfortunate turn of young society. It also could be a form of rebellion. Teens are naturally prone to rebel against their parents/authority, and so acting out on suicidal thoughts rather than seeking help can be a form of rebellion. I am NOT saying this is the case with all teens/young adults, but I think it might explain your question as to why so many young people have been through intensive treatments. Thanks also for your insights. Yes, there is so much less stigma than 20 years ago. Totally. Even in the past 10 years or so even. Quote: Originally Posted by vetty i think it is brilliant that you have stayed at home. staying in the real world must really help you deal with your illness, and help your recovery. hospitals never really help anyone, they just artifically keep people safe while they can't do it for themselves. i think it also shows the gap between the care that the private sector provides and the nhs. well done! Thank you, and, I agree. Quote: Originally Posted by shadow-light .... seems to imply that anyone who has not been hospitalised is automaticatally not as bad off as someone who has been hospitalised. I don't think that is right. People can go through EXACTLY the same experiances or EXACTLY the same diagnosis and deal with it differently. Absolutely. Quote: Originally Posted by Droplet This whole post makes me feel a little insecure, angry? Something, I'm not quite sure what. But I can see why that is and why it is tainted by my own experiences. I don't know where I count myself. I see myself as the one in the middle. I spent my teenage years in and out of units quite severely (but I don't know if I ever believed I was ill 'enough') and it has really messed me up. It's probably the number 1 thing on my mind a lot of the time even though I was discharged last in the summer, so this thread stirs up a lot of emotion. I think you said jealous wasn't the right word? But I feel like I have not 'made' myself, but that hospital has affected so much of my life that it has in effect 'made' a lot of me. I'm angry at that. At the hospital and at myself for letting myself go through that. But confused too - as I have genuinely had some of the best times of my life their which is really confusing and... wrong? :( Miranda, how're you feeling about this now? I hear your anger and insecurity and confusion. Quote: Originally Posted by shine And Katie, I'm really glad that you can finally be open and honest with your treatment team. I hope to do that someday, (if this has already been asked then apologies) have you spoken to them about your views in this thread about the severity of what you feel? I've not spoken to my treatment team, no. The thing is that the most severe things have been in the past. The general acknowledgement is that things are difficult and I do really struggle, and that I'm slowly and steadily getting better. In therapy yesterday I started to look more clearly at my breakdown when I was 24. I basically spent a whole week in bed, barely ate, couldn't cry, and was convinced I was dying of Hodgkin's Lymphoma which was spreading into my brain and womb. I did emerge from it - I had a blood test which I MADE the doctor have done, which came back clear. But back then I was not in treatment, and not aware even what I was suffering from had a name. I was very lonely, and under a great deal of pressure at work - self and work induced. Quote: Originally Posted by Snow Leopard Why is it so threatening for there to be elements of truth in both sides of this yes there can be a feeling that if you have been in hospital you are 'sicker' but also surely we should commend someone who copes with feeling so unsafe and isolated in the world and not conclude they are not struggling as much. Surely the only valid viewpoint is to listen and try to understand the heart behind what is being said after all we are all here because we need validation and connection not competition and judgement. I agree totally. Thank you. :) I don't know if anyone read ALL that, but if you did, well done!
Stellata Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London area