Section 136-ed without even being told?
 

In my most recent section 136 that is the reason why I am on section 2 now, I was more, let's say, co-operative. So for the first time they took me in an ambulance and not a police van. They said "do you want to come to St. George's?" (the general hospital) when I was in the ambulance. I said no. They said ok and talked to each other. The ambulance started driving. I asked them where we were going and they said they were taking me to Springfield Hospital (the psych hospital). I was a bit confused at the time, so I didn't ask further. Then, when the ambulance parked, I realised they were parking outside the section 136 suite! I became extremely defensive and tried to run away. I ended up in a section 136 room after quite a struggle.

My question is - can the police 136 you without telling you?

The 136 room would be the room where you discussed with the psych and mental health worker whether you should be admitted? If so, then yes they can. The meeting with the Psych and other staff would then be the formal 136 all the ambulance/police have done is take you to that meeting safely.

Roiben x

Ok well fair enough. Its just that my past experience with 136s is that the leading officer says to me clearly that they are detaining me under 136 no matter how confused and psychotic I am.

Yes - they don't have to inform you and they generally don't tell people "oh i'm detaining you under s.136 of the mental health act" they use more humanistic phrases like "we're just getting you some help", etc. Even when you're compliant sometimes, they'll take you in under a s.136.

I see. Ok. Its just that the other 3 times they told me.

Btw Threxy - I can't reply to PMs as my internet connection is sporadic. But the minute I get to go to my house I'll reply.

Technically they should tell you every time that you are being detained under s.136 MHA - it's treated as an arrest under the powers of PACE, and I think it comes under there (section 28 maybe?). But I'm not certain on that, so it might be that in some situations it is different.

In practice, it will vary and that won't always happen (rightly or wrongly). I guess from their point of view it's like with drunk people - they won't always tell a very drunk person everything about the arrest/legal rights etc straight away because in some cases that person won't be able to understand or comply.

So I guess (and again, this doesn't make it right necessarily) their view is that if they had told you then maybe you wouldn't have coped with that, so they play it down or avoid telling you in order to keep a person calm.

But as Threxy said, in my experience they will often not specifically say 'I'm detaining you under section 136 of the Mental Health Act'. I think only once have they said that to me. The other occasions it's been 'We're just helping you get some help', 'We're taking you to hospital' etc. Or on one occasion, when I was scared of them taking me somewhere, the police officer actually said to me 'I'm not taking you anywhere'. Which was true. Because his colleague was driving. Way to avoid answering much. :\

But yes, I don't think they will always specfically say it, even though really they should.

Sorry for your experiences Steel.*Much hugs and love to you*.

Yeah thats scary and worrying if they dont always have to say it.ive had the police come out to me a lot a few years ago but always went voluntarily after the threat of section but in theory does that mean that someone could be 136'd and actually never really know about it?

i can understand why they would not tell you at first but surely they or someone would have to tell you eventually?

xx xx

You'd find out eventually, don't worry about that. x

Either you'd find out just because of ending up in a 136 suite (or police cell I guess, heh), or during the assessment (for a 136 assessment it has to be two doctors and a social worker). And even before that you'd find out because they have to give you an information sheet (or at least, they certainly should give you one) informing you that you're detained under s.136 and informing you of your rights.

Oh good thanks so much for the re-assurance.i guess i knew id personally never been held under section previously but reading this just made me panic a bit about what could happen to people and then made me worry about my experiences!

Sorry and sorry Steel for hijacking your thread.im sorry for what happened to you.Must have been really frustrating and upsetting/scary to have to deal with.Maybe they didnt think it right to tell you at the time but how do you feel about that?im guessing understandably you would feel you should have been told.

Have you discussed what happened with anyone else professional or would you consider doing so just to get their opinion and perhaps know more what to expect in the future [ie whether they really do have to tell you or whether its discretionary etc]?

xx xx

Thank you both of you. I have the e-mail address of a police officer who I was involved with in March (I complained about it, he visited me, said sorry, explained what happened and gave me his e-mail address) so I guess I could ask him. I'm just waiting for him to return to work after taking time off.

So it was strange that the first three times they explicitly told me?

How do you know it was a section 136 suite? Does it have a sign on the door or are there other clues?

Sorry, I never been 136ed (to date), but I would like to know in case I am in that position.

Back to your original question, I think they should tell you, but it wouldnt surprise me if they dont, depending on the officer in question.

I've been 136ed four times so I know what the Springfield Hospital 136 unit looks like. The one in Tolworth Hospital does have a blatant sign on it but when I was sent there I was 18 (I'm 21 now) and they were carrying me face down and they took my glasses off me so I didn't know, and that was my first time.

(I know this was directed at someone else, but I'll answer it anyway, hope that's ok!)

On most s.136 suites there will be a sign on the door stating 's.136 suite'. But on the whole you will know just because of the situation - a s.136 suite is very bare, hardly any furniture, generally soft chairs rather than harder, and you will have someone sitting in there with you constantly (although that is a generalisation, because when I was in one hospital they did walk in and out of the room sometimes. But the unit was locked so they knew I couldn't have got out anyway).

Honestly don't worry about getting detained without knowing it though.You will almost certainly know you have been detained, because if nothing else they should always give you a copy (or at least inform you of) your rights.

Steel Maiden - e-mailing the police officer sounds like a good plan, at least he can hopefully give you some guidance on what their procedures should be if possible. Good luck x

ive been in that sitiuation where they have driven to springfield 136 suit and i was in ambulance but when i got to the suit the nurses said to the policeman "where is paperwork" (or something) and they said i hadnt been sectioned yet so they had to section me quickly because you have to be sectioned to be in that suit! its like a rule or something and they wouldnt have taken you to a prision because you were deemed mentally unwell. so its was there only choice i guess.

Fair enough, thank you for that post. That is bad that they didn't sign the papers in time.

What part of London do you live in? I live in Rosehill. Have you been on any of the wards in Springfield before? I've been on Aquarius Ward and Seacole Ward (which is closing down in August).

Are officers allowed to use pain to "control" people under a 136? I think they are but I need clarification.

ive been on aqaurius and jasper (crocus) and also seacole (when jasper has been full) and a ward at tolworth aswell but not sure what it was called. i live really near you. where are the paitents on seacole going to go then if it gets shut down?

what sort of pain to control you? im not sure really they have only ever restrianed me, forceable taken peircings out and shoes and stuff, they also used handcuffs and leg restraints but tbh i cant really remember i am normally pretty out of it at the time! the weight of a lot of people holding me down pretty much stopped me from doing anything

Hi hun, I always thought they had to tell but when I think about it one of the times I was s.136'd they didn't tell me until I asked where we were going. How comes Seacole is closing down? I've been to Springfield too (Aquarius, Jasper, Heather & Seacole). How are you doing at the moment love?
Emma xox

I know very little about police law/PACE, but apparently so...

I was 'arrested' for D&I and when I was being held down on the bed by security and the two police officers that assisted me to hospital put both my hands in sort of 'wristlocks' and used pain compliance when I was getting my blood pressure taken. Although I think they used it unlawfully, because they gave me an 'example' of what thresholds of pain they could use (out of 20 apparently) and when I I told one of the officers that he was getting off on it, he took it to "threshold 5" and I actually had to beg him to get him to stop because I thought he was gonna snap my wrist.

The security/nurses around him didn't care and acted like it was normal, so maybe it was lawful. If it isn't, well, they can get away with it anyway.

Sorry if this isn't of any help.

Oh ok, when were you on Aquarius? I've been to Shamrock Unit (the PICU) in Tolworth Hospial a few times. That's cool that you live really near me. The patients are going to Jupiter/Jasper Ward/Tolworth Hospital/Sutton Hospital. Do you remember any of the nurses in Seacole? Because I know pretty much all of them lol.
I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience.
They kept twisting my arms so that it really hurt whenever I resisted their holds.

Seacole is closing down due to government cuts. Really stupid of the government but anyway.
When were you in Aquarius?
To be honest I'm struggling but I know what needs to be done.

That is horrible that he did that. That was of help.
I had three officers holding me down in A&E twice and the second time, every time I resisted they would push their arm locks to really hurt me. I had a pulled muscle for a while after that.

Yeah, I ended up being handcuffed to the bed railings (both sides) afterwards.

Now, I hate handcuffs - they hurt like f*ck (they dig into your wrists), but if restraint is such an issue, I'd much rather they use them instead of pain compliance techniques which can permanently damage ligaments/muscles/etc.

I don't think they should be using such restraint, especially on those suffering from mental anguish at that moment of time; well personally my case wasn't directly due to mental health - but D&I is a place of safety arrest for supposedly paralytic drunks, I was not cautioned nor charged for what happened (or even formally arrested), but in your case definitely not. Even if you're kicking off a lot, there are other ways. Judging by how often it's happened to you, it must be a local police thing..