The Question of Medication?
 

Hello all. I found this site the other day & it appears to be a good place to post. I post on a few Forums on-line. I enjoy writing & chatting with people; on-line. I think I do have technology issues; an addiction to the internet, & with computers in general. But I enjoy it.

I wanted to post a bit about medication & maybe open up a debate. How are people here with meds? I know that it can often be a complex & controversial subject. I have been researching & reading up on the subject of meds & mental health recovery; in quite some depth, for around 10 years. IMO - meds have a place & people should be free to choose their own treatment - in an ideal world. I do think that there is the potential to recover med free in the majority of cases; from even the most severe of mental illness; but only if the correct support, therapeutic environment & psychological help is in place. I would cite Jung's work & especially John Weir Perry & Diabasis as the main evidence, although there are others - including the soteria project, among others. Granted that for some; meds are most likely the best treatment; but I strongly think their use should be severely limited & other avenues of recovery & therapeutic assistance first applied.

For myself, I have found a Spiritually based recovery the best help. I do mean that in the loosest sense of the word. Finding my own framework of reference to the content of psychosis & the other worldly; of the altered states; has helped me develop some kind of perspective into things.

My experience of meds is very varied. At 17 I was on a lot of meds. I was around 4 months on a locked ward; among other things I was given Largactil & Aquaphase injections, as well as other drugs, that I cannot recall what they were. On discharge I took a prescription for a short while & then stopped all the meds. I worked for a few years & had another major breakdown at age 21. Initially I took prozac; which made me worse. After a suicide attempt I ended up back in hospital; still on prozac & also given Stelazine. Again, on discharge I stopped the Stelazine, but stayed on the prozac a couple of years & then stopped that too. I again went back into work & did some more college. Then at aged 25 I was sectioned again. This time the psychiatrist kept increasing meds - I ended up on 1200mg of Amisulpride. I was a Zombie for a year; I went from 11 to 18 stone in 6 months, & was almost bed ridden. I stopped them almost dead after a year. Within a couple of weeks I stopped them. I went back on section, back on 200mg amisulpride, I refused any more. I've tried twice again to stop them since. I wrote about some of this stuff in my intro; sorry if some of you have already read this.

So anyway; I could go into a lot of detail about the withdrawals. Early on in my life I stopped meds successfully twice. The Amisulpride I have not been able to, much as I would like to. I try to find a balance & have acceptance around presently taking this med. But I don't wanna be on it for life. I am concerned about long term effects; & I can get very resentful about taking it & focus on the negative aspect of a psych med; like the suppression of thoughts & emotions; the loss of sex drive, dependence on a drug; potentially serious side effects & long term effects etc.

How do other people weigh all this stuff up? I know a number of people who are med free & they are well; both in my RL (Real Life), & On-Line life. I have read many stories of med free recovery. I know some who are content with the meds as being what they perceive as the best solution. Some people have understandings of the complex issues around meds & seem more supportive & open to med free ideas; others appear very fixed in the idea that everyone should be medicated as a best solution. I don't think that there is any definite answer to all this stuff. There is much which is still mysterious & unknown about mental illness. Certain things however have always resonated with me more than others. I prefer the "alternative" viewpoints to the Orthodox. I can see that the Bio-Chemical model plays a part; that genetic pre-disposition leading to chemical imbalance is an aspect of things - but I consider it to be a very small part of the picture; or just one facet of a multi faceted condition. I am unaware of anything beyond the anecdotal which proves this genetic/chemical cause - it is unproven as far as I am aware.

I have links to a number of sites on the subjects of alternative mental health & non-orthodox views.There is this site which I like -

Spiritual Emergency Blog

At the bottom of this Profile page are the links to their three Blogs -

Voices of Recovery

Spiritual Recovery

Spiritual Emergency

I do understand that there are many varied forms that mental illness takes; & likely to be many reasons for peoples suffering & experience. I would be interested in whatever views people have on all this. Thanks.

can only speak for myself here - and nothing very profound to say - but I can see certain patterns from my parents in the way I interpret the world, whether that's nature or nuture who's to say? Probably a bit of both... I read it once (sorry, can't remember where) that it's like asking whether you went on holiday by 'plane because you decided to and bought a ticket and turned up at the airport, or because the laws of physics meant the plane could get into the air and get you there.

Either is just a mental model.

I don't take meds at the moment because I have concerns about side effects and about the stigma attached (most jobs I apply for need an Occupational Health questionnaire, and then I have to decide whether to lie - which could get me sacked later if they find out - or tell the truth and perhaps not be considered for a job that I could actually do successfully). But I wouldn't rule them out

personally I don't like meds... but that's only as I feel that sometimes they are given out without trying anything else, they can be given out too early and result in a person not tackling the route of the issue.
however, I am aware that in some cases meds allow a person to do this, and meds work fantastically for many people.

I think I dislike meds for two reasons... 1) when I was younger my mum got put on prozac and it didn't react well with her... and, 2) I study meds as part of my degree and so maybe know a little too much about them and how they work to feel comfortable with them...


despite this though, I am currently considering going down the meds route... just because I have tried other things for a while now to no avail, and think i may have no other option...

Meds enable me to function. Yes i hate taking them and the side effects but without medication i would be dead.

Hi lost. For some meds do save them I think. There is middle ground. There is no carved in stone & one size fits all - especially when it comes to mental ill health.

I have no way of definitely telling if I would have fared any better with solely alternative non med means. It is chicken & egg stuff. But had I received proper support, comprehensive practical assistance, thorough & competent psychological help; from day one. If I had been treated in a therapeutic environment of trust, & allowed to work through things; then I seriously doubt that I would have needed meds or be med dependant today. there wasn't a choice - I was forced meds.

I have been lucky in finding some of the people I have met & been introduced to; with the support of family & friends. Presently I am finally receiving some limited psychological help with the local mental health team & orthodox services - but it's 20 years after the fact!

I just think that the ideal should be a free choice; as far as possible - or a more available choice to different treatments from the people whom the services are there for - the mentally ill. I'm not at either polarity of saying - meds are the only solution - or that meds are all bad & should be abolished. They are one part of a tool kit for recovery. I do not however agree with forced treatment; only, possibly, in exceptional circumstances.

Thanks for the replies.

I am currently on meds but have been on and off them, I now only get them when I feel the need.
I can't talk for other people and have never studies the subject but for me I first when on them when I had no alternative and really needed them to save me, being on them allowed me to sort my life out but I also received psychotherapy to help me find the cause of the problem. For me the cause is partly genetic and partly life induced so it will always be with me.
I have also tried some sorts of alternative therapies, meditation and massage have both helped to some degree.

For me it depends on how bad I am whether I need the meds or not, I now take a lower dosage than I have in the past and I think part of this is that I now recognise that I am ill, I can admit it and help myself to do something about some of the symptoms without the need for meds.

I too have gone back and forth about meds. I'm not on them at the moment, but I've thought about going back on them recently. There's no doubt I needed to be on antidepressants at one point in my life- I'd been in therapy for a couple months with an excellent therapist, but it wasn't helping as much as I needed it to. After a suicide attempt, I was put on meds. It took a long time to find the right meds at the right dose (and a couple scary incidents of being on the wrong dose), but eventually the combination of meds and therapy and exercise straightened me out.

I went off the meds after a couple years, mostly because I kept forgetting to take them and I was feeling fine anyways. I know I could relapse without them, given my family history and my own personal history. But for the time being, therapy and exercise are working well enough to keep me symptom-free. I don't think I'd be opposed to going back on meds if I started having symptoms again, but I'd also want to know a time frame- how long after I feel OK would I need to stay on them? I'm not OK with being on them indefinitely, but if it's for 6 months or a year to help with specific symptoms, them I'm ok with it.

I guess if I think of physical illnesses, the ideal is to gt someone 'well' (whatever that means!) in a way that as much as possible promotes the body's own healing mechanisms, but balanced against getting it done as quickly as possible. Long term use of meds is not a good solution, but for some conditions it's needed.

I think the trouble is, as a couple of people have said, for mental illnesses sometimes drugs are prescribed as the cheap or easy option for doctors. Certainly all the times I've been prescribed anti-depressants (or had them suggested) its been by GPs who don't really have anything else to offer. The mental health specialists have always reversed that (once the appointment finally came through) That was a pattern that happened several times.

Hi,

I'm not a doctor so you shouldn't take my advise as gospel but I will give you my opinion.

I have been told that there is a link between spirituality and better mental health but I'm not a religous person so I can't really say that it has worked for me.

There are other non drug therapies like CBT, DBT, support groups, counselling which all help different people. I'm a believer in psychological therapy too so I go to regular counselling sessions which are helpful.

I have come to accept that my mental illness is an ongoing thing and I will need drug treatment for the rest of my life. In some cases like mild/short term depression it is possible to recover without meds with the help of supportive counselling or other therapy.

In my case I have been through a hell of a lot of meds too. Effexor, Several SSRI's inc Ciprimil, Avanza, Prozac, Zoloft, Luvox, Aropax. Currently taking Epilim (Sodium Valproate) and Prothiaden (tricyclic AD). Have also taken many benzodiazepams and occasionally Zyprexa in acute situations. It seems you have been through many meds too. Doctors generally try the SSRIs first as they have fewer side affects and if they fail they may go to TCAs. I was given this warning before I started taking Prothiaden but I find it much more tolerable than Effexor was so everyone is different in the way their body reacts.

I certainly believe that if you are self harming or suicidal, medication and psychological therapy are both necessary. I doubt that the psychological therapy alone would be very effective without the meds and vice versa.

I have and am still recieving non pharmaceutical treatments, however i dont see how therapy is going to help my thoughts from racing, and sedate me enough so i can sleep.

Yes it is good to have therapy and to talk about issues that drugs wouldnt contend with but the medication is fixing a chemical imbalance in my brain. Thoughts are just another chemical reaction and i need the medication to help alter that chemical reaction occuring in my body.

I never really believed in the whole issue that my illness was physiological and i never held drugs in a vey high regard. This was until i had ECT, yes its an intervention but it doesnt involve any drugs as such. And do you know what after both courses of ECT i felt like me again.. so now i do believe maybe my illness is in part related to my seratonin, dopamine, neurotonin levels!!!!!

I know meds can be trying, i have been on over 30 psychotropic medications. I have had horrendous side effects such as serotonin syndrome, an underactive thyroid and gained over 30kg (some of which i have managed to lose now) but my medications allow me to function and although some days i dont see the point in anything, i know without the drugs i would be 100 times worse. I know because i have experiemented

I know you say you were forced meds, i was too but had i not been forced meds then i would have ended up seriously hurting myself.
I accept that yes you have an alternative viewpoint then myslef, i prefer stuff which can be backed up with scientific evidence or research, so if you can find any than i would be very happy to read. I guess apart of me and my university education and chosen profession seems to rely heavily on the bio medical model so i am a little more suspect when people clain alternative therapies work.

I dont think you can really say that you believe that you can overcome a mental illness without pharmaceutical intervention if you yourself are still reliant on medication. I know you may say that you are not reliant on it, but your past sections prove that indeed you are. I am not meaning to sound rude but it seems a bit hypocritical to claim that you can overcome your illness without drugs, only to then admit you are still taking them.
The problem here however is you claim that this alternative therapy helped you, but you are still taking meds, so who is to say that if you werent on medication it may not have helped at all???? However if you werent taking any meds and claimed an alterantive helped then you may have risked being accused of not being that ill? Do you kinda see the point i am trying to make? Not trying to be malicious so i hope it doesnt come across that way.

Yes you are correct that not all meds have a one size fits all. But this is the case with any pathological illness, ask 10 asthmatics there meds and it will defer, or how bout 10 patients with hypertension? Or even 10 patients all having expereinced an MI? They will all be on diff meds, but yet will be treating similar symptoms and pathologies.You could then ask them how many meds they trialed before they found the right medications to minimise or eliminate there symptoms and there answers would be similar. The problem with drugs is that it is a trial and error situation, and the main downfall with psychiatiric medications is that patients often have to wait 6 or more weeks to see or feel any effect, whereas a patient taking medication for high blood pressure would be able to tell within hours or days.

If you have an understanding of type two diabetes then this might help. If you have a patient with type two diabetes you prescribe them medication to control there hyperglycemia (high blood sugar). However as you prescribe this drug you know full well that the patient would also benefit from a change of diet, exerscise and to lose a bit of weight. You are however concerned with dealing with the life threatning symptoms such as high blood sugar and once this has been stabilised you could then focus on the secondary issues such as excess weight that may have contibuted to the high levels of sugar in there blood.
Do you see the point i am trying to make? It could be likened to giving a patient anypsychotics to deal with there pyshosis then once the majopr symptoms have been dealt with, incorporating non pharmaceutical interventions to lessen the severity of the symptoms.

That is the orthodox perspective. It addresses only the physical factors present in psychiatric illness.

& that is all well & good. I have never said that orthodox treatments do not have the potential to help people. In a number of cases they are the only thing which will help. I have come across people for whom brain surgery & namely frontal lobotomy; they have credited with returning them to a better quality of life. The question however is - does the fact these treatments help some people; justification for their widespread use for all; at the exclusion of other therapies?

I am also suspect. Where is there the proof of the Bio Chemical model!? In over 10 years of intensive research I have yet to find it. The chemical imbalance theory is just that - a theory; a hypothesis. It has never been categorically proved. Anything beyond anecdotal evidence is severely lacking from the present orthodox paradigm for cause of mental illness - they do not know the causes. Of course there is a Bio Chemical element to mental illness; I don't deny it; someone in a psychosis is experiencing an altered state & has altered brain chemistry. If I experience fear - then adrenalin is released; my heart speeds up etc - those bio chemical reactions are not a cause of the fear - the fear has caused those physical reactions - the physical reactions are as a result of other stimuli. I don't see the difference with brain chemistry in psychosis. Simply not enough is known about about the workings of the mind in relation to environment; to know exactly what is going on. There is no proof that chemical imbalance is a cause of mental illness - period.

Of all the studies done - & the only actual proof as to cause - is the link to environmental factors in relation to higher incidence of mental illness. Mental illness is far more prevalent in certain groups experiencing poverty; family break up, high stress & abuse; addiction issues etc. Look at the subject of mental illness within the armed services - people; under the right psychological conditions can be driven mad.

The orthodox paradigm sets as its measuring post that mental illness is a "genetic predisposition leading to a chemical imbalance" - something which there is no more evidence for than saying it's "invisible blob men"; that are the cause.

Consider this -

Did you check out the links I posted in the OP?

I know people in my real life; people on-line; & have read of numerous personal stories; & am aware of many people to have recovered fully entirely med free from even the most severe of mental illness. Of course mental illness can be overcome without pharmaceutical intervention. That isn't to say everyone can - But many have the very real potential to do so. How am I any different in that?

The works & life conclusions of Carl Jung; John Weir Perry; Loren Mosher; & Daniel Dorman - To name some - these are all Real Doctors - people who have genuinely helped & cured their patients from even the most severe of mental illness. It isn't made up. This is all well documented.

The views of Mental Illness that have made most sense to me & which have had the greatest therapeutic impact on the lives of "sufferers" - are those paradigms which take in a more complete view of the whole person & their whole being; understandings which are more holistic; & which see "psychosis" & other "mental illness" - far more in terms of a natural healing mechanism - psychological processes which can be worked through & have the potential of integration & resolution; leading to a greater sense of well-being & self. This perspective has been practically proved in numerous studies. - It does appear that the factual studies which have been undertaken & very well documented - especially in the case of John Weir Perry - Shows that people can & do recover if given half a chance. Why are these clinical & scientific studies so flatly ignored & often denied by the orthodox?

What paradigm is better? An unproven theory saying you will never recover because you are suffering an organic brain disease brought about by your genetics - & you can do nothing about it except take tablets.

Or - That you are in all likelihood experiencing a natural healing crisis - or a mechanism of the mind - which if approached in a caring, therapeutic & holistic way can lead to a full & lasting recovery; in the majority of cases (backed up by numerous real world studies). Not least; this was the life long conclusion to the work of Carl Jung - that even the most severe sufferer of "mental illness" could be completely cured by purely psychological means.

I'll go with possibly the greatest mind of the last century on this.

I do understand where you are coming from. I accept that given my present circumstances I need to take a low dose of one med; at the moment. This situation however has far more to do, IMO; with having being made dependant on this med; & never offered comprehensive alternatives. I have never had the opportunity for a med free recovery. There is a slim possibility that maybe, had I been given thorough assistance in my life & med free alternatives; that still the best course of action may have been meds. But, in a humane society I would have been given the opportunity of alternatives. I am very hopeful that I will one day successfully get med free.

Had I listened to doctors & taken their advice - I would still be on 1200mg amisulpride; I would also be on anti depressants; & sleeping tablets - at the minimum. As it stands I am only on 175 mg Amisulpride. I have actively & forcefully refused meds in the past. & thank God I have.

I don't argue that the Orthodox paradigm doesn't have a place; But it is a limited perspective. The Bio chemical model is very narrow; as is akin to seeing only one side of a octakaidecagon.

We need a balance.

BTW - I have undertaken over 6 years of higher eduction since leaving school - & have conducted extensive research into this subject; from both sides of the fence - the orthodox & the alternative. It is OK to disagree & I hope you also do not take offence at anything I have written. It is my genuine opinion.

Mental Illness has, IMO multiple & complex influential factors & cause. I have found the majority of people are largely satisfied with the orthodox perspective; & maybe this situation, this orthodox paradigm is best for most people & what they need. Not what would best help - but what satisfies people. I have always strongly opposed & disagreed with the general orthodox understanding on mental illness & I always will.

Some quotes I like on the subject of different perspective to all this -

The mystic, endowed with native talents... and following... the instructions of a master, enters the waters and finds he can swim; whereas the schizophrenic, unprepared, unguided, and ungifted, has fallen or has intentionally plunged and is drowning.

"It is true that overcoming obstacles and difficulties accelerates spiritual progress. The most serious lifetime difficulties, like severe psychiatric illness or physical disability, may be signs of life progress, not regress. In my opinion, it is often the very strongest souls who have chosen to shoulder these burdens because they provide great opportunities for growth. If a lifetime can be likened to a year in school, then lifetimes such as these can be likened to a year in graduate school. This is probably why difficult lifetimes are more frequently recalled during regressions. The easier lifetimes, the "rest" periods, are usually not as significant."

Brian Weiss, MD - Through Time Into Healing

"...there are often times when custodial care is required for a person, because he is doing work. You see, I'm very far out and I'm somewhat scary from a societal point of view, because I'm not sure I can tell you that two years in a mental hospital isn't much more advantageous in one's growth as a being than four years of a college education. And that maybe six months in prison could be comparable to a post-graduate education in education."

Ram Dass - The Only Dance There Is

"I'm very spacious about this kind of thing, because I've seen people spend time in catatonic stupors in mental hospitals as a result of drugs, and later they turn out to be more effective as human beings, more alive to the moment, than people that went through Harvard and came out summa cum laude. Even with my relatives, whose kids got doped and started to fall apart, and the parents put them in a treatment program, because they freaked because the kid wasn't going anywhere. And I understood the parents' fear, but when I looked at the parents' own lives, I thought, what is it they're trying to do? They're trying to justify their own lives., which has a completely dysfunctional mythology connected with it. And if the kid says, "I don't want to play the game", is that health or is it sickness? Are you asking them to be initiated into a pathological system?

Ram Dass - interviewed in Gnosis No. 26 Winter 1993

http://www.mindspring.com/~berks-hea...bell-schiz.pdf

http://www.jungcircle.com/roberts2.html

Or Google - "Joseph Campbell & schizophrenia"

well, we all have to find what works for us... and I for one will take an aspirin to get rid of a headache, even if it would get better anyway in a few hours. So even more so meds that could save my life... whether for physical or mental illness.

I agree - & if psychosis is bad enough & there are no other options than I'll take anything too. But it isn't quite as simple as having a headache.

Everything you do creates a chemical reaction in your body, some of these reactions can deplete certain chemicals needed to function. For example Muscle contraction requires bothy sodium and potassium in order for your muscles to function. However you need to be continually replacing these essential electrolytes. It is the same if a person is repeatedly exposed to a certain situation such as abuse, or a war; a chemical reaction occurs in order to evoke what ever emotions, thoughts etc occur. Repeated exposure such as during war are obviously going to cause a depletion of certain chemicals such as serotonin. So yes traumatic situations could exacerbate the problem and medications are there to correct this imbalance. You may need therapy in order to deal with the trauma but the drugs are treating the physiological dysfunction.

You have totally taken what i have said the wrong way. You have deliberately taken quotes from me, but not taken the whole thing so it comes across wrong as it is no longer in context. such as just chosing not to post the bit where i say that you cannot claim to be able to overcome mental illness without pharmaceutical intervention if you yourself are still reliant on medication. THat is just hypocritical, yes you could claim meds have a place as an adjunct alongside altrernative therapies..but to sit there and claim that it is possible to get better without medications then how come you yourself are still reliant on drugs?

Yes my views are orthodox, but what you have to understand is that the treatments you recieved were from trained dr.s. They were Dr.s before they ever became psychiatrists and thus are trained to deal with illness using the bio medical model, (in a western society). If you feel like your treatment is not right for you then sure you are entitled to seek alternative such as from a more holistic perspective. Yes it is the BIO MEDICAL model, not the BIO CEHMICAL model so i would appreciate it if you would not refer to it as such. I have not disrespected your beliefs by ridiculing there official names.

I see you only recently joined this forum, Did you join purely to have debates such as these? BEcause if you did i think you may be in the wrong place..this is a support forum, not a debating forum. We could debate forever and a day about this topic..but i really dont have time. Sure you are entitlted to your own opinions just please do not force them on to already vunerable individuals..such as the members of this site.

You say you are university educated... that is ausume many of the members here including myself are. So if you have any published work i would be only more than happy to read it..however i dont believe that this post is serving much of a purpose. It actually does make me a little mad, because it is because of theories such as yours which have lead to increases in stigmastisation towards people whom are mentally ill. If i did not take medications and if people did not genuinely believe that i was just suffering from a chemical imbalance then there is no way i would be able to work in my choosen proffesion. Research has shown that is peoples new view that psych problems are an illness just like asthma which has made people more accepting and reduced the stigma experienced by the mentally ill.

I am sorry that you didnt get the help and support you feel you deserved. But that is the case with most health specialties particulalrly if you are relying on the public sector. I however have been fortunate enough to see my psychiatrist weekly for both psychotherapy and pharamaceutical intervention since i was diagnosed six years ago. I guess my main issue with this post is because from reading other peoples post on here, they often unsure about whether to take medications. I myself struggle with the fact that i am reliant on these chemicals to function. This to me seems like an inappropriate post because you could easily be 'forcing' your views onto others not intentionally, however the vunerabilty of some may mean that this occurs. I know a few people whom i would hate to think might read this debate, and thus then stop there court ordered tretament.

perhaps it would be better in the 'news and debate' forum, not the support forum?

That is of course the official line of orthodox psychiatry. As far as I am aware (based on scientific study) - powerful mind altering medications cause chemical imbalances - in doing so some people appear to be helped. They do not "correct" anything.

I have answered your post (above) as honestly & accuractly as I have been able to.

As far as I'm concerned the medication has not helped me - it has hindered me. All the genuine support & assistance I have had has come from outside of chemical interventions & outside of orthodox psychiatry. The only reason I am on this medication is because I have been made dependant on them; & when I attempt to stop I suffer with a withdrawal psychosis. The meds have caused far more problems than they have helped with; & I have recovered in spite of them & orthodox psychiatry. The meds have created a chemical imbalance & strong dependence in the brain. So much so that the dependence is such that I become seriously ill when I attempt withdrawal - not because of any underlying "problems" but due to a chemical withdrawal effect of the drug. I was forced this treatment - I had no choice in this.

I know what training psychiatrists receive. I don't see what bearing that has on the effectiveness or failings of the orthodox psychiatric system.

I have not been entitled access to viable alternatives. That's my point.

The main hypothesis of Western Orthodox Psychiatry - is "Genetic predisposition leading to chemical imbalance" They play lip service to environmental, family & other influencing factors. However - orthodox medicine is Bio Medical - psychiatry is not. The Bio Chemical model refers directly to psychiatry; & is not in line with the Bio Medical Model. I personally consider psychiatry to be pseudo science - it is not proper science; & nor is it based on the same Bio Medical model. In relation to psychiatry; it is correct to refer to their paradigm as the Bio Chemical Model - & I will continue to refer to it as such.
If we are referring to more scientific areas of research & development; such as neuro science & the like; then I conceed that such things have a Bio Medical or more scientific basis. I see neither a scientific; nor Bio Medical basis for orthodox psychiatry.

I have not forced my opinions on anyone! I joined this site for support; yes. I have expressed my personal views & opinions; respectfully & intelligently. I raised this subject as it is an area which is critical to me in my life; & the subject of medication & the failings of orthodox psychiatry has had an immense impact on my life. I am not forcing you to respond in this thread I started - I am looking for support; not ridicule, derision, hostility & antagonism. From my perspective you are trying to force your opinions onto me.

I completely disagree. Sorry; but I do. The subject of stigma & discrimination is far more complex; & frankly has little to do with conformity/non conformity to orthodox psychiatry.

I said I had attended over 6 years of further eduction; as well as gaining experience in many different fields. I did not say I was University educated. Although that may change as I am thinking of doing a degree.

I think it is very unfair of you to say such a thing; especially given the intelligent, considered, respectful & balanced way in which I have replied. I have known a considerable amount of people to have been severely damaged by orthodox psychiatry & forced treatments. You say you have been helped by the "system" - well then you should count yourself very lucky indeed, & know that your experience is certainly not the norm.

I have acknowledged the potentials of meds & the orthodox to assist some people. I certainly haven't suggested to anyone that they should either take or not take medication - & I would never do such a thing. & nor have I ever done such a thing. As much as possible people should be free to choose whatever treatment can best assist them in the most informed way possible. I am quite sure that people can make their own decisions & draw their own conclusions. You asked me not to take offence in what you wrote; & I didn't. I replied honestly & openly without any offence to you. You appear to have taken great offence to what I have written & to have replied in a very "straw man" manner. I have not been abusive, nor flaming. I am simply stating hard won experience; & my own genuine opinion on these subjects; & seeking to find support from others who may have gone through similar circumstances. Please respect my views - even if they are different to yours. If this is a support forum; then shouldn't you be being supportive? especially to a new member?

Some of the first replies on this thread are from people who shared similar perspectives about medication!

You ignored the points I raised in the OP; & you have ignored the points I have raised in my reply to you. If you find the subject of "alternative" or med free recovery so abhorrent to yourself - then why reply to me at all? I am simply trying to find support & assistance to some genuine & very distressing issues & serious problems which I have in my life. Problems, IMO; exasperated & caused by meds & orthodox psychiatry.

As far as I am aware this is not an "inappropriate post" - I thoroughly read & have adhered to the forum rules. I read nothing in the rules that I must post my opinions to be in line with orthodox psychiatry & orthodox treatment.

It has taken me a lot of courage to post here; & to post about these subjects which are deeply personal to me & central to my life; & life circumstances as they presently stand. I posted here as this forum I found; appeared to be open & friendly. I thought this would be a place that I could share my opinion(s) & thoughts without attack & hostility. & be free to express my honest opinion.

I posted here as I was advised to post in the "Veterans Corner". I also posted in the "Veterans Support" as I wanted support for these issues.

I was also hoping for some intelligent discussion & interesting conversation on the wide & complex subject of medication & treatment.

I don't mind if this thread is moved; as long as others & I are able to feely express their opinions.

I am not alien to debate - as long as it is respectful.

I'm not a moderator (perhaps a moderator could help?) but I guess if you're looking for 'intelligent discussion & interesting conversation' then it's debate - which as I understand it is a different forum.

If you'd like to share how you're feeling then this would be the forum. You seem quite frustrated by the treatment you've had - what support would help you?

I am no longer going to bother to reply to this. You have your opinions and i have mine. Yes i am fortunate to have had good psychiatric help but this hasnt always been the case. I have been screwed around and over by the system and yes it sucks. i have been forced to take pills, endure 48 courses of shock treatment, been restrained countless occasions and what did it all achieve??? So yeah i am sorry you were forced meds, but i dont believe that you cannot stop them by withdrawing them slowly.
Has it ever occured to you that you past recreational drug use could have something to do with the psychosis not the pharmaceutical drugs? Yes you are clean now but the lasting damage.
Yes ask for support, but i think you need to go about it a different way.
Seeya later. I am not going to keep bumping this thread up as i hope it just disappears into oblivion.

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Definitely. I experienced some traumatic events early on in my life. A large reason for taking drugs & getting involved in the drug scene was; I think; an attempt to alleviate certain emotional & mental pain. Drugs are obviously not a solution. My use of illicit drugs at the least exasperated psychosis; & at most they caused it. I used to have massive highs & lows in my drug taking - I would wager the highs & lows were greater than most who are in that lifestyle. Through my own effort; & with a lot of help from people outside of the "orthodox" I was finally able to get clean & stay off the street drugs.

When I got clean I changed GP - & was told that it was totally unethical to have been diagnosed with anything other than a drug induced psychosis. Indeed; when I was 17 I had been diagnosed with drug induced psychosis, & sectioned for 5 months in a secure unit. Knowing my history & drug abuse issues - these problems were never addressed, & no support was ever offered by orthodox services. In fact - after a while; & the second section at aged 21 - these drug problems were flatly ignored & denied, at the least they were passed off as not having anything to do with the psychosis. Hard to imagine or fathom why? Considering the large amounts of drugs I was consuming.

My active addiction & drug problems were obvious reasons for either cause, or at the least exasperating psychosis. So why were these problems not addressed? Why was I labelled Schizophrenic & stuck on meds? Why was there no attempt to help with any kind of rehabilitation; that nothing was done to assist in any kind of practical way? Or to address any of the difficult life circumstances I had at the time?

Drug addiction is no different to alcoholism - which is recognised as a disease. A solution of which is a program of abstinence - more commonly through 12 step methods. There is no chemical solution to addiction/alcoholism; & I would consider that the idea of a "Chemical solution" in general is an oxymoron anyway.

I take the meds in the morning. Yesterday I forgot to take them until the evening - that happens sometimes. I started immediately feeling odd & in withdrawal - it only takes a day for the withdrawal symptoms to start.

I have posted this from MIND

Quote:

Withdrawal effects

- What I am experiencing is drug withdrawal in previous attempts to stop this drug. I have given it my best to get off this drug. Due to a lack of the support I need & severe withdrawal reactions; I have been unable to successfully stop this drug. My last withdrawal attempt was a 2 year detox from this drug.


I have tried everything within my power to get off these drugs. I cannot as my present situation stands. I have to accept taking & being utterly dependant on them.


I am sorry for your treatment also. I have some horrific stories of my treatment over the years also. I speak out against the orthodox - for not only do I think they are very wrong in the way they address the issues of mental illness; but also as I have seen so much damage caused by the present system.

Primarily Tokoloshe I am looking for support & perspectives to my situation & circumstances; maybe from people who have gone before on this path, or who may have experience which differs to mine.

I hold very deep resentment with orthodox psychiatry & with the wider society. I am frustrated with a lack of support & genuine help - as well as with certain issues I have in my life. Ideally I would like the opportunity for a Jungian based recovery/support model. At best something like the Soteria or Diabasis Projects (there are other too). Unfortunately there is nothing like that presently running in the UK; where I live; & my financial position is a very limiting factor in what treatment & support I can access.

I know i said i was no longer going to reply, but i was extremely agigtated the other day when i replied so hence my posts sometimes reflect my mental state. Feeling better now =)

I think it is terrific that you managed to stop the recreational drugs, and yes i believe that they should treat the underlying issues such as drug addiction before labelling you with a mental illness.

Sorry i read your profile... i was just wondering though (this is just speculation so correct me if i am wrong) you were 17 at the time so you entered mental health services about 18 years ago. I know what i am trying to explain so i apologise if this comes out wrong. Do you think that the treatment you recieved may have been a reflection of the social period of the time?

This is just speculation but i have only been in mental health services for 6 or so years, and i have noticed that the focus has somewhat changed since i first entered them. It used to have more of an emphasis on medications, now however alot more people are offered therapy, rehab, being treated as an outpatient. This could be the country i live in though, what country are you from?

I have spent alot of time in hospital aswell and i have to say that whilst inpatient, there is too much emphasis on drugs. I was never offered any kind of talk therapy while in there and they seem to have a drug for everything! Its like oh your angry...here have a lorazepam, or you are being to loud...have a IM injection of halapederol, or you cant sleep so here have some more benzo's.
Personally i think the overuse of pharmaceutical drugs in a hospital setting is to create less work for the staff there. The ironic thing now is i will prob be in therapy for at least another year because i have been so traumatised by the stuff i saw and the things i expereinced whilst i was inpatient.

I know how hard it can be to come off drugs, I have had a terrible time coming off a few. The withdrawl symptoms though (for me) were transient. which meant for two weeks i had a hard time. I think one of my reasonings behind being so pro medication is due to my profession and also due to the fact that without medication i am unable to sleep.

Are you recieving any type of therapy now? Sorry you have probably mentioned it but i cant be bothered going back and reading the other posts.

Glad that your feeling better :-) & Thanks for your reply.

Yes, definitely. Things today are far from perfect; but they were a hell of a lot worse when I was first in hospital 18 odd years ago. I do realise that there have been changes. There is far more emphasis on home treatment; talking therapies; & far more in the way of support for those experiencing a first psychotic break. The orthodox does appear to realise that the first signs of psychosis; especially in the young; can have far more favourable outcomes if approached more thoroughly & therapeutically.

My perceptions of the system are coloured very much by my own experiences; & are not always accurate as to how things are today. The 1980's & 90's to a degree; did appear to see a lot of emphasis on medications. In the late 60's & early 70's there appeared a leaning towards other areas of treatment, in some circles. Things today do seem as if they have swung back towards more "alternative" or less fixed treatments. At the least there appears more acknowledgement of other areas of treatment & less focus on medication as the only option.

But; different countries, areas, individual practitioners & individual cases can vary so much.

I have heard that the Scandinavian countries especially; have taken a very much more holistic & therapeutic approach to mental illness; with a lot of community support; & the emphasis has shifted away from medication as a first treatment. Even in the UK - there does appear to be less emphasis on meds & at high doses. there does appear to be a realisation that multiple factors & treatments are needed for effective recovery. That meds are only one part of a tool kit for recovery.

The other factor which has impacted my treatment in the past is that I am from a very rural area. There is a severe lack of services in the area I am from.

I live on the South Coast of England (UK). I moved area some 7 years ago; to a much bigger town along the coast, & since being picked up by the services here, some 4 years ago; there has been a big difference in care. Although still lacking, I have been kept under regular 3-4 monthly psychiatrist appointments; I have seen a couple of CPN's, & I have finally been given some psychological help. MIND & RETHINK also operate in the area, & I have used their drop in groups & advocacy services.

Which country do you live in?

Yes, it is like that. Drugs do have a place; but I think there should be far more in the way of more therapeutic, & talking, therapies. The most effective relief & assistance for me; has come form chatting to others. Initially in hospital with the nursing staff & especially other patients; & then later on with certain friends, other psychiatric survivors, & others.

It can be very traumatic to go through the system. I was very traumatised by my experiences; firstly of the "condition" & then by the reaction to it.
I think that there will always be things with me which are unresolved & which play on my mind sometimes. The recovery journey for me has been slow & gradual.
Very much recently I have been in a place of working through things, of continuing to let things go & to move on from reliving of certain experiences, & times in the past. I do try as much as possible to live in the present & deal with things which come up. I am also working on an on-line study course with ACT therapy (Acceptance & Commitment Therapy). The course is free; all I have to do is to fill in regular assessments. The workbook is also available from book sellers (if anyone is interested). I am finding it helpful. It is all a part of an ongoing effort to deal with stuff & try to live as best I can.

Yes, it can be very hard. I have been battling recently with trying to stop the cigarettes. I got to 6 weeks & was involved in a car accident & had a lot of other stress too - I folded & started the Ciggies again. I am going to try & stop again soon.

What is your profession? Sleep problems have been a big part of things with me too.

My pattern with stopping the meds in the past; & when I have been ill, is that I start experiencing an anxiety that does not alleviate & gets worse & worse; this leads to racing thoughts & lack of sleep; which feeds into more anxiety; the anxiety turns into paranoia; & after a few days of not sleeping my thinking becomes delusional. On the tablets I do have a quality of life; generally I manage, I sleep, although I have sleep problems; especially with nightmares & getting to sleep. I also get anxiety; but I do keep it in check. In one way the meds are good in taking the edge off things; but this is also what I dislike about them. It is like I am almost in a kind of dream or a cloud. Like I am not quite fully awake; & not fully experiencing things.

I have to try to look at this med situation; that I am processing stuff & feeling things; that I do have emotions & clarity of thought. But I go between acceptance of the meds; to total non-acceptance of having to take them; & blaming them for many things which I see as problems in my life. I am lethargic, slow at getting things done. My sex drive is affected; I have not been in a relationship for over 10 years; the whole time I have been on the tablets. I worry about the long term health risks of this drug; also the potential cognitive impairment. I try to just accept that for the time being, taking this med is the lesser of two evils. I do feel though; that had I received better support & help in the past; that I would not need to be on it.

I am very grateful in that I have built up a good support network of people I can chat with. I do have good friends & a close family. I am very close to my mum & bro. I have been on at the LMHT (Local Mental Health Team) for many years about psychological help. It has taken around 3 years, & two assessment appointments; to finally get to see a psychologist. I have had around 6 sessions so far & they are in agreement to more. It is going well. In the past I have had other limited sessions with counsellors, over the past 7 years, once with a trainee, once at the GP's surgery, & once with a support worker with a local drug support service. All three times I ended up ill, & the sessions were contributing factors. They were all inexperienced, ineffectual & frankly - not suitable therapists for me.

I am glad to have found this present psychologist; who is experienced, very well trained, intelligent, & very perceptive. They have helped me to gain insight into many things which I had no realisation of before. & they are helping me explore the behaviours & thinking patterns I have; especially around issues of abandonment & resentment. All this is helping with the process of healing & letting go.

These past few months I have felt much better "within", & more hopeful & optimistic about the future. My life is in a fine balance. With work I think I can improve my lot with many things. It is a case of plodding on; & making the gradual change to a fuller life & deeper recovery.

In line with the treatment I would have preferred; & feel would have been far more effective in my case; here is an article on "John Weir Perry". I have read most of his books & I would highly recommend them.

Dr. John Weir Perry: The Far Side of Madness

They miss the whisper that runs
any day in your mind,
"Who are you really, wanderer?"--
and the answer you have to give
no matter how dark and cold
the world around you is:
"Maybe I'm a king."

William Stafford

The terror of psychosis–and the terrifying treatments to which the “mental patient” is subjected–remains a source of bafflement to the outsider and a source of frustration to many practitioners in the mental health field. Although the literature is fraught with descriptions of symptoms, diagnoses, theories, and methods of treatment, few researchers address the patient as an equal. Rare, indeed, is the practitioner who has come to view psychosis as a strange sign of health: as an attempt to heal or as a stage in a developmental process that transports the subject beyond sickness or health and into a positive transformation of the self.

Such an exception is John Weir Perry. His Far Side of Madness remains a classic in the field for all these reasons. Working in the lonely tradition of Carl Jung and R.D. Laing, who each viewed psychosis as potentially purposive and telic in nature, Perry describes the goals – and the terrible dangers – that are typically portrayed in the psychotic journey.

Perry’s work in traditional psychiatric settings led him to conclude that those in the thrall of an acute psychotic episode are rarely listened to or met on the level of their visionary state of consciousness. Instead, every imaginable way to silence the patients–to ignore and to disapprove of their nonrational language and experience–was called into play, thereby increasing their sense of isolation, alienation, and so-called madness. (Although the book was first published in 1974, things have not substantially changed in state mental hospitals or in community residence settings. To explore the strange imagery of psychosis with a client in a counseling session is viewed as “feeding into their delusional system,” and it is sternly discouraged by psychiatrists and social workers.) Perry’s work with those in acute stages of psychosis revealed that their pre-psychotic personalities were the true source of the “sickness.” Forced to live an emotionally impoverished life, the psyche had reacted by forcing a transformation in the form of a “compensating” psychosis, during which a drama in depth was enacted, forcing the initiate to undergo certain developmental processes.

Such psychic processes, which are accompanied by rich, emotional imagery, yield amazing parallels to classical myths and to obscure rituals of antiquity:

The individual finds himself living in a psychic modality quite different from his surroundings. He is immersed in a myth world ... His emotions no longer connect with ordinary things, but drop into concerns and titanic involvements with an entire inner world of myth and image.

Although the imagery is of a general, archetypal nature (“imagery that pertains to all men and all times”), it also portrays the key issues of the individual undergoing the crisis. Therefore, once lived through on this mythic plane, and once the process of withdrawal nears its end, the images must be linked to specific problems of daily life. Thus, the archetypal affect images await a reconnection to their natural context: to the personal psychological complexes (which are externally projected).

The notion of a “reorganization of the Self” is central to Perry’s approach to the psychotic journey. Extreme damage to the self-image was the typical pattern involved in the cases he studied. Injury to the self-image is so severe that, during a crisis, psychic energy leaves the higher levels of consciousness and is attracted to the psychic depths, where an archetypal process of renewal commences. The goal is not only to restore self-esteem but also to engender a “capacity to love and be loved.”

For this to occur, there must be a connecting link with another human being (and not necessarily a link with “professional”): one that instills warmth and trust. This will allow a forward progression of the inner-imagery (reminiscent of Jung’s statement that a schizophrenic is no longer schizophrenic when he feels understood by someone else). Therefore, “analysis” seems (at least, at this stage) secondary to the basic human consideration of kindness. In place of an omniscient psychotherapist, Perry posits the autonomous psychic process as a crucial factor at this point in transformation.

Perry searched for and finally discovered a regular pattern of imagery and ideation in the psychotic process. The “negative self-image” is typically be compensated by an “overblown” archetypal one, the latter manifesting in imagery such as that of the hero, clown, saint, ghost, or sovereign leader. In addition, there is a sense of “participating in some form of drama or ritual performance.” Most significantly, ten sets of motifs emerged:

Source [Continue Reading] -

http://spiritualrecoveries.blogspot....f-madness.html

In relation to the thread & a general trend within the latest aspects of MH paradigm; concerning spirituality within mental health -

http://www.spiritualcompetency.com/

From Spiritual Emergency to Spiritual Problem: The Transpersonal Roots of the New DSM-IV Category Source - http://www.spiritualcompetency.com/jhpseart.html

Abstract

Religious or Spiritual Problem is a new diagnostic category (Code V62.89) in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual-Fourth Edition (APA, 1994). While the acceptance of this new category was based on a proposal documenting the extensive literature on the frequent occurrence of religious and spiritual issues in clinical practice, the impetus for the proposal came from transpersonal clinicians whose initial focus was on spiritual emergencies--forms of distress associated with spiritual practices and experiences. The proposal grew out of the work of the Spiritual Emergence Network to increase the competence of mental health professionals in sensitivity to such spiritual issues. This article describes the rationale for this new category, the history of the proposal, transpersonal perspectives on spiritual emergency, types of religious and spiritual problems (with case illustrations), differential diagnostic issues, psychotherapeutic approaches, and the likely increase in number of persons seeking therapy for spiritual problems. It also presents the preliminary findings from a database of religious and spiritual problems.

Introduction

"Religious or Spiritual Problem" is a new diagnostic category (Code V62.89) in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual-Fourth Edition (APA, 1994). The Thesaurus of Psychological Index Terms (Walker, 1991) states that religiosity "is associated with religious organizations and religious personnel" (p. 184) whereas spirituality refers to the "degree of involvement or state of awareness or devotion to a higher being or life philosophy. Not always related to conventional religious beliefs" (p. 208). Thus religious problems involve a person's conflicts over the beliefs, practices, rituals and experiences related to a religious institution. Some forms of spirituality presume no external divine or transcendent forces (e.g., humanistic-phenomenological spirituality) (Elkins, Hedstrom, Hughes, Leaf, and Saunders,1988), and spiritual problems involve distress associated with a person's relationship to a higher power or transcendent force that is not related to a religious organization.

While the acceptance of this new category was based on a proposal documenting the extensive literature on the frequent occurrence of religious and spiritual issues in clinical practice, the impetus for the proposal came from transpersonal clinicians whose initial focus was on spiritual emergencies--forms of distress associated with spiritual practices and experiences. The proposal grew out of the work of the Spiritual Emergence Network (Prevatt and Park, 1989) to increase the competence of mental health professionals in sensitivity to such spiritual issues. This article describes the rationale for this new category, the history of the proposal that was presented to the Task Force on DSM-IV, transpersonal perspectives on spiritual emergency, types of spiritual problems (with case illustrations), differential diagnostic issues, therapeutic approaches for spiritual problems, and the likely increase in number of persons seeking therapy for spiritual problems.

Interview with David Lukoff -

http://madnessradio.net/madness-radi...e-david-lukoff

Quote -

Jung & Schizophrenia

Eighty-odd years ago, Jung voiced his deep concern that the powerful, often vivid, chaotic and disturbing psychology of schizophrenia, which he had so painstakingly chartered and honoured throughout the many years he treated and healed schizophrenia sufferers, had not been given the respect and serious attention it deserved. He likewise lamented the appalling lack of knowledge of the psychology of schizophrenia among those of his own profession, a situation which has changed precious little today.

Sadly, however, Jung's vast body of invaluable work has fallen for the most on hostile ground and deaf ears, ironically in psychiatric circles, largely because Jung's respect for 'the reality of the psyche' and its religious, mythic and spiritual needs, dimensions and instincts poses a threat to the materialist bias that underscores drug-based, or biologic psychiatry, but also because his personally demanding and soul-centred approach to psychiatry is radically at odds with the detached 'illusion of expertise' on which biologic psychiatry's mask of authority, presumed sanity, and stagnant wasteland of 'brain chemistry' dogma are shakily grounded.

In place of dry textbook knowledge learned by rote, Jung gives precedence to living primary experience, hence his assertion that we understand nothing psychologically unless we've experienced it. In this sense, the people who know most about schizophrenia are the sufferers themselves, followed closely by those who have 'been there' and have pulled themselves out of a psychosis and so 'know the road'. Such folk, as invaluable 'wounded healers', can therefore often guide others groping along similar roads, or pull people out of the quagmires and tricky labyrinths of psychosis.

Equal Therapeutic Dialogue

In place of the practitioner's mask of fatherly authority, Jung puts the mutual vulnerability, openness, imaginal richness, honesty and trust of the therapeutic dialogue, in which patient and therapist confront one another on equal terms and through which both stand to learn and grow. In place of forced treatment, hasty consultations and toxic psychiatric drugs, Jung puts a trust in nature, unconscious wisdom and the healing which, residing in the 'patient patient', is catalysed and midwifed by the caring therapist. No wonder he poses a threat to those who esteem power, professional detachment, diplomas, diagnostic manuals and drug company profits over the empowerment, equality, freedom, healing and dignity of the patient.

Needless to say, there are other closely related and equally grave moral issues at stake here. For instance, imagine, if you will, that a reputable medical practitioner had come forward with evidence of a safe, natural cure for cancer, but that the medical establishment had ignored the evidence and, worse still, had kept the findings from cancer sufferers for fear of losing income and power through their monopoly over the provision of existing anti-cancer 'treatments', which do not heal. By the same token, Jung - and others who have followed in his wake - cured his schizophrenic patients with psychotherapy alone. The tragedy of the 'mental health crisis' is not only, then, that so many already fragile and wounded people have been damaged and driven to suicide; what is equally tragic is that all along, there have existed natural, re-empowering, healing alternatives to psychiatric drugs; alternatives which biologic psychiatry, the Government, Schizophrenia Fellowships and drug companies have in a morally disgraceful way ignored, or deliberately kept from sufferers and the public.

http://www.jungcircle.com/


http://www.breggin.com/


http://www.mentalhealthforum.net/for...ead.php?t=3220