Self Injury Form
 

I've been thinking about this forum, and I cannot for the life of me work out how most of the threads are helpful in anyway.

Carving Words?

for instance, this thread.
i cannot see how this is productive in the slightest. How does this help someone recover?
It also seems like almost glamourising.

How & when did you discover SI?

I'm not even going to start, honestly.

Why do you self harm?

One of the better threads that seems to turn up, but still.

Impulsive/Premedative



I was going to post report several threads (more than the links), but then thought, this might be easier. I cannot for the, well, I cannot see how 'some' threads in the forum are constructive or helpful.
I personally do not find them triggering, more almost distasteful, the feeling I get from that forum is of feeling like part of this 'cult' or it almost being cool for standing out & doing something slightly different.

I've been trying to word this well & been thinking about it for a few days, it's a forum i've never really posted in & to be honest, i suppose the only time i would is if i thought i could word my reply so i was showing off.

it seems one of the most competitive forums (bar ed which i've never looked it, going by what i know of ed's), discussions of who started earlier or who has the most words & wether you can still see the scars.

to me that forum reminds me of kids behind the bike shed at school showing off about smoking.
i know we don't allow photos, but i can almost see the people in the forum together, rolling their sleeves up going "look at this word" or trying to speak the loudest over some elses sob story, trying to be seen as the one who hurt themselves the longest.

I completely agree. I thought it was just me. But the forum is also SI Discussion, so I suppose it sort of fits there.

In a similar vein, there has recently been loads of threads in Reviews for songs/films/books/other media about self-harm/suicide/abuse/other things. Maybe it's just me, but I dislike these as well. I'm not saying these should be deleted or banned, just you know, looked at.

This Irks me the most & the 'stories'.

I can understand in si discussion some toics, such as "how to tell your mother/father/brother/lover/friend with benefits etc"

but how & when you started, i'd like for someone to tell me what POSITIVE THING they got out of that discussion.

I think the point in threads like that are to talk about something no one's ever asked you about, so you can get it out of you and just say for once this is why and this is when i started, or to see if there is someone who does the same as you out there, so you don't feel so alone... Sorry if you don't like this reply, but thats my opinion on this matter...

they are valid questions and in the appropriate thread so why shouldnt it be asked?

but alot of it can seem to other people innapropriate and competative.

If it's for self understanding and then being able to grow and move on from in recovery, it's cool.
But there's a fine line, isn't there, in some cases?

I guess it's just about curiosity for the most part. Like the SI/ED films, I've been interested in watching them to see how the particular issue is portrayed and hope it might help me learn a bit more about myself etc.

And the whole 'When/how/whatever else' threads, I can understand why it would bother certain people, but you don't necessarily have to look at the thread, maybe some people just want to get certain things off their chest, such as what age they were when they started or how they discovered it, but may feel like they can't tell anyone that information in real life. So I see where you're coming from, but it may not always be 100% negative.

Is being on a self-harm forum not enough to know that you aren't 'alone'? I think these threads somewhat normalise self-harm, which is something that I am not comfortable with at all.

Claire said what I was going to say. I think RYL normalises a lot of things that aren't normal or healthy behaviours, and that can be dangerous in itself. I understand some people find it helpful that others are going through the same things, but at the same time, yes, some of it can go a bit too far.
(I don't feel I'm making my point right, I apologise if it comes off not the way I intended.)

The carving words thread I think was made so the person who posted could see if anyone else did that so they don't feel alone in what they do. And yes being part of a self harm forum does make you feel less alone but just joining a website doesn't make all the feelings go away. Especially if you are doing something such as carving words and you don't know if you are the only one doing such things. The poster was perhaps looking for someone who understands this notion? Seeing as carving words isn't the exact same as cutting.

The how and when thread I think helps people talk about it. When and how it all started for them.

And same for the why thread, it helps them talk about it with people who understand.

The impulsive/premedative thread again, the person who posted may have wanted to know if there was anyone else who did that, who could understand those feelings and thoughts, etc.

So yes, I do see how they help people.
They are merely questions asked in the right place, for support or to let it out or it may even just comfort some people to know they're not the only one doing it this way and that way.
I don't see the problem with it.

Basically this. Yes, people come on a self harm forum so that they're not alone, but really, it's not a full substitute. The same feelings are there. Certain behaviours within the curtain of self harm can make a person feel alone in each particular behaviour. Take for example, the carving words discussion. The OP felt that they may be the only person to do this, but with so many replies, felt less alone and more able to open up about it.

On the other hand I think the threads can get a bit too much elaborative. Saying "Yes, I have carved various words into myself at times" is one thing, but saying "Yes, I have carved X, Y and Z into my A, B and C and mostly they were shallow but sometimes they were deep" is too much. It's unnecessary. It's almost glamorising and comparative. Which is why I'll take part in discussions but never go into the detail of it, instead offering a more supportive "I've done the same, if you'd like to talk about the feelings behind this behaviour, feel free to PM me" type post.

/end rant

While these are contradictions, they're not necessarily encouraging people not to seek help. Even if a person has sought help and their friends/family do know, they still may not want fresh cuts visible. Or, more often, won't want them visible to strangers/friends/people who don't know and may stare or ask rude questions. So this, to me, is still "recovery-oriented" in that it's based in not allowing the general public/other people to make people feel worse than they already do--weird, disgusting, isolated, etc.

i suppose the simplest thing to say is what do you mean by helpful? some people will find it helpful to talk about SI and others wont. i can understand how it may be seen as normalising SI, but i also know others will see that as a safe or comforting atmosphere. if you ask me it will all depend upon what you want from the forum. i dont want this to be taken the wrong way, but most of the people in the SI forum are the youngest members on the site, and really as a teenager your mostly just looking for acceptance, not recovery. i dont believe however that that makes the SI forum useless, as people will most likely have underlying problems that lead them to SI, which if they feel safe, they might talk about on other parts of the site.

what is it that you want from the SI forum? how would you change it?

^ good post.

I agree.

I understand where you are coming from but at the same time i think threads like carving words etc people don't have the chance even in therapy goods to talk about details like that,yes we can talk about the emotions but sometimes talking about certain details helps. Your saying about covering up/hiding being contradictory but we can't discuss certain other elements. I understand why the rules exist here but sometimes your just dying to talk about the how/why/wheres to someone, anyone, not as a show off thing but because there is no one you can tell.

To be honest those threads don't bother me either way, i haven't taken part in them but i do understand why someone might start them.

Pretty much this!
As one of the people commenting in the SI forum fairly frequently, I do find it helpful to talk in these sort of threads. It's merely a way of knowing that I'm not alone in certain behaviours- and a lot of the time just getting everything off my chest!
I think anyone going into the SI forum expects there to be threads of this nature, but what would you like it to be?

I would have thought being on a self-harm forum that acceptance was implicit. We are all here because at some point we have self-harmed.

Yes, it's nice to know that others are going through the same things and maybe even doing the same actions, but at the same time we need to remember that none of this is normal. And it certainly shouldn't be seen as that. That is my main problem, really. These threads do almost glamourise self-harm, and that does not sit right with me.

I disagree that these threads try and normalize or glamorize SI... Everyone here is here for the same reason, help, which means we know our SI is wrong, and not normal. Sometimes it just helps tho to know your not the only one struggling with a certain thing, and that if another person who does what your doing can put in the effort to recover, you can too... If it's possible for them, it gives you some hope that it's possible for you.
Sorry. If that sounded at all mean, or offensive to anyone, I didn't mean it that way. =)

I agree 100%

I have nothing els to add really, except that I think the rules are strict enough, and rightfully so! I would hate them to become stricter, for lack of a better word, with threads like the, carving words one etc being removed. Its really helpfull (and not normalising in my opinion) to know that 'you' are not the only one doing certain behavious (ie word carving). Sometimes details ARE important, we all know how isolating SI is and sometimes knowing that others are doing particular things that you do is really helpfull amd def not encouraging\glamorising. There is def a fine line but dont think these threads have crossed it. And without being too harsh no one is forced to read any thread... sorry for the rant.

^ How very true. No one is forced to read any thread. If you don't like the content of a board, don't go into the board.

I think a degree of "normalizing" is almost necessary in order for some people to be able to talk about it. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I come to this site because I feel less ashamed, and better able to open up and actually address some of the things that bother me about my own self-harm, rather than just putting a good face on it the way I do most of the time in offline life. The biggest reason I've come to feel comfortable enough to do that is that sense of shared experience. I've posted to some of the "why" threads also because it sometimes serves the purpose of helping to establish one's identity here on the site. I use it as a reference; if I know more about someone else's given situation, then when they post for support later on I'll at least have the basics down. I use it in tandem with the intro boards.

I see what you mean about there being a "competitive" edge to some of the threads, but honestly even that strikes me as a kind of lonely crying out--a need to be seen and heard in a way that some of us are simply not in our daily lives. Is it great? No. But bear in mind also that one of the most common reasons people turn to SI is lack of validation. If no one hears you when you're talking, you either shut up entirely...or you talk louder.

This.

Maybe it's just me (and it probably is) but I think that being a member of a self-harm forum is enough validation. I agree that normalising happens here, and with a site where everyone has self-harmed it is inevitable. However, there is a fine line between accepting that we are all here for a reason and almost reveling in the fact that we self-harm. In some of these threads that is the sort of vibe I get. Some (not all!) feel like they are almost bragging about what they do. It's no wonder that those who scratch, or who have never been to A&E, or don't cut terribly deep can feel out of place and like they are not 'bad enough'.

I'd just like to add that I have no real problem with discussions that take place. It's just that I dislike the "it's ok to do this" attitude which is prevalent.

This.

& For those that say if you don't like it don't go on the boards.
I don't.
I see the replies when I watch live view.

Maybe it's my age, but the replies i see unnerve me & sicken me a little bit.

the thing is, in therapy, there is the chance to talk about it.

some wonderful psychiatrists & psychologists play what i call the silent game & are quiet until you spill everything. carving words can be discussed with a doctor, as can, where, when & how & if the doctor says 'i don't want to hear it' or similar a new one should be found.

in therapy it is to help you, not the psych or psychologist, so if you cannot discuss it in therapy & it is that important to discuss with strangers on a website, well?


i just think the self harm forum should be removed in parts, maybe linked into an everything goes like jack suggested, i think threads encourage threads of similar things & i think it is mostly younger people who frequent the forum or new people when i don't feel it is a healthy atmosphere, hence why i don't go in.

It's because we are old codgers. Obviously.

I have just a full read through of the carving words thread. It's not offering any direct support, nor is it offering any form of discussion. There was one or two posts offering very good advice and they have been next to ignored. I don't see what twenty-odd people saying "Yes, I have 'fat' cut here and 'hate' carved here" or "it offers something more than just cutting" adds. I would even go so far as to class the thread as bordering on pro, to be honest.

I'm sure we're all aware that I fully support a more open, mature and personally responsible RYL. However, I don't support something that is tip-sharing, glamourising, or normalising.

The problem with that, is that we're a self harm forum. We can't have a self harm forum without a self harm board. I used to struggle to talk to my counsellor because I couldn't talk about it due to a difficulty that I have talking to people I know face to face about such things. Strangers on a website I could manage because I don't have to see their facial or bodily expressions.

That's what I was trying to say, which is why I said that I would willingly take part in conversations but not add to the pro aspect of it by going into detail.

see i completely dont get this feeling from the forum. ive never understood the whole tip-sharing thing myself, SI is SI no matter how you do it, so for me if someone writes "carving fat gives something extra to cutting" i just see that as them validifiying their pain and why they do it, not tip-sharing. again i dont get the whole glamourising thing either. i dont get that feeling when people post saying they 'like' self harming, because well dont we all? we must atleast take some comfort from it otherwise we wouldn't do it surely? with the normalising thing im a bit unsure which side im on actually. i really can see where youre coming from, but as i said in my other post i also know other will see that as a safe and comforting atmosphere.

i do have this to say however, if you take these threads out of the SI board what else is left? seriously without these threads you may aswell change to forum name to the 'hugs and kisses' forum.

Why not?
I used to be on a really neutral site (you could tip share but you could aslo you ask for support in stopping) & the actual self harm discussion forum was barely used.

Then you word replies so they aren't all hugs and kisses, you challenge people to actually try to recover, if thats what they are after, & offer constructive support, instead of reply *hugs & kisses* to everything.

I do see your point, however for me, being here isn't simply enough to convince me that I'm not alone- just because people are here because they've self harmed doesn't mean they feel the way I do, have stories similar to mine or the same behaviours. Talking it through really helps me when other people are struggling with urges too or are dealing with the same 'issues'. I don't know how to explain this properly, but talking on these threads gives faces, names, personalities to people who understand you're troubles and are going through the same thing- and that means a lot more to me than a statistical number. But maybe that's just me.

i dont believe you recover from SI, i believe you recover from what causes SI. if your self harm is becoming dangerous to your health then yes it should definitely be addressed, but i dont believe that we should focus on stopping someone from self harming if all thats doing is sweeping the real problem, the problems that are driving the destructive behaviour, under a rug for the benefit of social norm.

I think the reply needs to be seen within the context of the thread. If I had posted saying that cutting words gives me something more than just cutting, then that could be challenged and supported. However, on that thread it was just people saying yes they've done it, and in that context I found it a bit more on the side of tip-sharing than the others. There was no direct supportive function to the thread. I could post something similar (I don't know if I would allowed to give an example) on the ED board and it would immediately be seen as 'pro' and removed.

I don't want these threads removed. I would just like some consistency. Like I said, I fully support a more open RYL, but we can't have that lying within a forum that is meant to be 'safe'. It needs to be one or the other.

I'd rather not have my personality be aligned with my self-harm. Yes, it is a part of me, but it is not what makes me who I am. I do not associate my personality with my self-harm at all.

I have no problem with people discussing things like urges, as long as they are not done in a competitive or glamourising way.

I think we agree with this, in that we would prefer the actual causes of the self-harm are discussed? But I do not really see that happening on the forum currently.

I wasn't comparing the issues, just the type of posts. I'm well aware that eating disorders are different, but they are treated so differently.

No, cutting words isn't tip-sharing (although some might see it as such) but is there really a need to say I cut [word] onto [body part]? It would have been fine if the post was used for support rather than just a list, if you see what I mean? If the post was used to discuss why the person feels the need to do it, whilst still letting them know that they weren't alone in it.

What I say as tip-sharing was the 'it gives me something more than just cutting' post. Now, if that's not giving someone ideas, I don't know what is.

As for the how and why, well no, not really. Because again it's just a list. I don't see how that is providing any sort of discussion or any sort of support.

Not all of us go to therapy though, I know that I certainly don't. And not all of us have a support system that's willing to talk about our SI, if they even know about it. Sometimes the only place a person has to turn is "strangers on a website" because those "strangers" can relate to what we're going through, insted of telling us how sick and messed up we already know we are.

^i have to agree with that, 2 years in and i STILL can't get therapy-DBT would be beneficial for my BPD and self hamr but theV don't have the resources here

Though i don't agree with normalising issues, i also don't agree with not talking about difficult things and brushing them under the carpet. It took me years to be able to talk about my self harm as it has always had a stigma attached to it. With Ryl some of that stigma is taken away so you can open up.

I see what you mean about being validated just by joining the boards, and to a degree I think you're right; after all, here is a whole site full of people who suffer similar troubles. It potentially poses a huge benefit to recovery. But to me, it's not so cut and dried. Again, I can speak only from personal experience, but I only started looking into support for self-harm at the start of this year, and I've been self-harming since I was nineteen; to say this has been a cautious experiment for me would be understating it. Just realizing the forum is here is not a guarantee that everyone is going to feel comfortable opening up immediately, or at all; that's not something that happens right away. Self-harm, for me, has been a lonely and at times frightening road. Sometimes it has been of great benefit to come here and read where people have posted the same thoughts I have, or talked about the same urges to escalate. I see where you are saying that these behaviors should be challenged more on the boards, and addressed more head-on, but there is also a disclaimer right on the site's page that says this isn't a substitute for professional help. Every time I port in support, I ask myself whether I'm going to do more harm than good by asking probing questions and trying to get at the root of things. I'm not a therapist, I don't know the kinds of questions to ask. I definitely do not want to hurt someone's feelings, or make them think they're not welcome to post here just to receive validation or hugs if that is what they desire.

Second thing...I don't know about anyone else, but at times I do revel in the fact that I self-harm. I struggle with the urges to escalate, or do different things that would be more "effective." Self-harm does have a powerful lure; why else would so many people end up stuck in it, and struggle so to quit? That's part of the reason I'm on this site in the first place: to try and talk about the stranger aspects of my self-harm, find common ground, and maybe, eventually, accept for myself that I really could potentially overcome this. I can talk about self-harm to my therapist, and I do. But I've only been in therapy for a few months now...I've been self-harming for years. And in what has passed for my support network up to now, there was no way I could have ever talked about something like struggling with wanting to get worse.

On that same topic, I think it's important to accept the fact of one's own self-harm before concentrated, serious effort can be made to overcome it. Like the 666th Pope said, you don't get over self-harm; you just move on from it, the way you would an addiction. This is just my opinion, but I see a lot of those "does anyone else do this" threads turning into lists mostly as people wanting to identify with one another. We're all struggling to come to terms with our own self-harm; there's no standard way of doing that, (and in much of popular culture talking openly about it is a bad idea) so we're kind of left to muddle through on our own the best we can. I guess most of my perspective on this stems merely from my own experiences. The biggest favor this site has done me is to prove beyond words and statistics that I am not a complete pariah.

It doesn't bother me to be honest, I think what can be a helpful question can attract unhelpful/ competitive answers but you don't stop asking.

I think the thread about carving words could evolve into an unhelpful thread in general, but the question asked is absolutely fine. I guess any question about 'what you do and how you do it' is going to give people who want understanding, understanding and people looking for tips, tips.

I think it has more to do with the reader than the writer sometimes.

I'm totally with you there.

"I'd rather not have my personality be aligned with my self-harm. Yes, it is a part of me, but it is not what makes me who I am. I do not associate my personality with my self-harm at all."

I'm sorry I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I don't consider self harming to be part of my- or others- personalities. I don't want to be defined by my self harm!
All I meant was that it makes others with self harm difficulties real rather than statistics.

Of course we're not professionals, and that is why I whole-heartedly encourage everyone to see their doctor and attempt to get some professional help. I also know that counselling does not work for everyone, but that shouldn't stop people trying. I think if people posted what it was they were looking for (emotional help, practical advice, hugs, etc) then it would help enormously in giving appropriate support.

I know that sometimes people do revel in their self-harm, but I don't think it is appropriate to do so on this site, which is largely (although not completely) recovery-based. I do not think it is okay for people to think what they are doing is normal or that they are part of some exclusive group because of what they do. Not saying you do, just that sometimes that is how it can be on SID.

Maybe it's because I'm not 'addicted' to self-harm that I have a different viewpoint to others. I don't know.

Sorry, yes, I think I misunderstood. I get you now.

Bearing this discussion in mind, I went back onto the SID board and re-read some of the threads; I made a point of reading through the threads that have been discussed here, especially. I can see where you're coming from in feeling that there is sometimes a competitive feel. I still think that's mostly down to insecurity; like Jodi said, a desire to find commonality with people as individuals. I think it's a maladaptive desire to be acknowledged.

I think I misconstrued you on this in my last post. I only meant that I think the site is, or could be, a useful tool for talking through these kinds of thoughts, away from the sometimes judgmental atmosphere of even the best friendship groups. Some self-harm thoughts are too difficult to quantify to someone who loves you, and is trying to support you. I've seen some supportive and empathetic threads started about struggling not to escalate or do something "really" bad. <-- I ask you to forgive me for that; it's all bad, obviously, but I'm talking in terms of degrees here, and the language won't support anything that fine, heh.

As far as it being "normal" or "okay" to self-harm as a coping mechanism, I think I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you. I think in order to really work on the causes of self-harm, and try to seriously stop it, it's necessary to understand and accept it. Self-harm, to me, is really just another ugly, dangerous habit, like drinking. There's nothing that special about it; it should be treated in the same way as quitting anything else. I think it's necessary to at least try to eliminate guilt about it, because feeling guilty about doing something also tends to foster resentment for the people who don't do it, and are trying to get you to stop. (General you, obviously.) Also, reducing guilt and shame tends to lend a clearer perspective.

I agree that self-harm is a horrible habit, but so are a lot of others. Just my two cents.

I think, ultimately, we are saying the same things but from a different angle.

It all depends on the context of the thread. Competitive lists are not okay, but asking for support for something is perfectly fine. I dislike some responses that say something like scratching or bruising is fine as a 'safe' alternative to cutting. They are both self-harm, and should both be viewed and treated as such.

As to the point about fostering resentment, I have definitely noticed that. You only have to look at threads about parents' views, teachers, friends etc who may not be as empathetic as those here. However, and it's a big, huge however, replies to these threads which simply agree with the OP about how mean and nasty the person was really get my back up. It does not help for the poster to be encouraged in their response to someone reacting negatively to their self-harm.

It's good to see this being discussed in such depth and with such intelligence and it's nice that at least RYL is open enough to have this stuff discussed and out in the open.

It's a very tricky subject that involves very fine lines indeed.

Where RYL has always 'succeeded' over some other sites is that it has always been great at making people feel less alone. These discussions which you quote are generated by people seeking to gain connections with others, quantify what they do and stop the cycle of feeling hey are the only people in the world who feel the way they do.

There are many steps to recovery, and those steps are different for every person. Some gain a huge amount of positive from discovering they are far from unique on what hey struggle with, others much less so.

Swing too far the 'responsible' way, and the site acts as nothing but a mechanism for more shame, guilt and self hatred. The perfect line to take is to be a best friend who takes someone with all doors closed out of their shell, and scorn has no part in that. Parents, teachers, doctors etc all do enough of that for most members, and RYL is designed to be a refuge from that.

I completely agree that there are risks, and that going too far and allowing encouragement has massive dangers, but then so too does leaving people feeling alone. We try enormously hard to inhibit encouragement, tip sharing or negative posting through our moderation. I can't promise we get it right every single time with the millions of posts that are made on RYL, but know that we try our best.

RYL's mission is not to fix people with self harm, it is to increase peoples confidence in support, even in the worse circumstances. Many of the people coming to RYL are hardened harmers, failed by multiple other recovery methods and professionals, and many others are simply not ready or willing to stop.

Too clinical a site that constantly shuns people for their situations would not increase peoples confidence in support. Better is a plan to gain peoples trust, then lead them towards support, information, advice and the way forward.

RYL would never promise to be able to solve all elements of self harmers problems, and in no way removes to the need for any other coping or recovery mechanism. Instead it is here to ease those who have real troubles with gaining support and the idea of recovery towards it.

I think we can do a much better job still, and see many elements of the site that I feel let down just this point you speak of. Much of my work with v4 revolves getting this balance right for more people, more of the time, and i am confident it will.


Harley

I think again that there are two sides to it. On the one hand, there's the suggestion that it's competitive and/or glamourising and/or could give people ideas that they haven't considered before. On the other hand these are very stigmatised behaviours and sometimes you're desperate just to say to someone 'I'm doing this, I don't really know why but I feel like I'm the only person who does it'.

For me personally, I don't particularly like the idea of normalising self-harm for myself anymore. I don't generally go in the Self-Injury forum because it's not something I have a problem with anymore - I do it sometimes, maybe I will do it sometimes for the rest of my life, I don't know. But I think for me it comes to a point when I have read so much about self-harm and the things people do that I am not surprised by it anymore, I'm not shocked by it, it's too normal a part of life because I have read so much, and in 'real life' sometimes you see people's shock and concern and think 'Ok, actually it's not ok to be doing that...' (That applies to anything like this, not just the Self-Injury forum, though).

But that's just me, other people probably won't agree and I think it's good to have a balance. Self-harm, depression, mental health problems, etc, etc can be very lonely, and sometimes it's good to hear someone say you aren't alone, that they understand what you're going through. It's not something that many people can talk about in 'real life', and I guess for some people it's good to be able to have that release and to feel like they are being open and not hiding that huge secret part of themselves.

but do people really need to post about how much of a mess they make and how much blood loss and how they love thier new razors ect.