Should he be protected?
 

Many of you will remember, in 1993 Jon Venables and Robert Thompson, two young boys of only 10 years old, were found guilty of the torture and murder of one little boy, who had wandered off away from his mum in a shopping centre in Liverpool; Jamie Bulger.

Story -> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/991562.stm

One of those boys, now in his twenties, was released a few years ago. He has now been put back in prison for reasons unknown.

However, it was decided that both Jon Venables and Robert Thompson would be protected. Their identities would not be known to fellow prisoners and images of them as they are now would not be shown to anyone.

After what they did to that poor little boy all those years ago, should they be protected in this way or not? SHould they suffer the consiquences of their actions or not? Should they experience how disgusted the rest of the world is with their actions? Or be sheilded from it?

I'm unsure. My heart says no they shouldn't but my head says that for a child to have done that to another child something serious must have been going on for them and also everyone makes mistakes as a child, huge or small so maybe they do deserve a second chance as an adult. But yeah my heart says a strong no.

Yeah I agree with the above really. I am a strong advocater of forgiveness. They were only kids. Yes what they did was utterly utterly disgusting but as children, were they really aware of what they were doing?

Also if their identities were known they would both have been killed by viliganties by now, making someone else a murderer, so surely the police had no choice but to protect them if it was to stop another crime. That is their job after all.

However I do not for one minute agree with them being given new lives and houses and everything. They should have had to work for what they got like anyone else.

And from another point of view I would like to know if my boyfriend/best mate or anything used to be venables or thompson because it would alter my view of them, e.g. would you let them look after your kids? So I feel sorry for those close to them who don't know who/what they really are.

With regards to them being children when it happened, they were stopped by people becuase of how they were treating the young child, but they claimed he was their brother when anyone asked questions. THey also said they were copying something the saw in a movie and that is why they did it.

They were trialled in an adult court, instead of one for young people. When a person of authority stood to question one of the boys, Im not sure which of the two it was, he looked the man and up and down and said "and what the f*ck are you looking at?" Is this really something a 10 year old boy would come out with to a person who could really decide if he was to be imprisoned for the rest of his life or not?

(My auntie was in the court room at the time)

I just don't think that we have anything to gain from knowing the identities of these people.
The family of Jamie Bulger may have the right to be told the nature of the crime and possibly even the identity of Jon Venables and Robert Thompson, however I fail to see what the public have to gain from this knowledge.

Surely the idea behind the concealmentof their identities, was to prevent them from falling subject to vigilante justice? They have already been punished for their crimes by recieving and serving a jail sentence.

Children usually know TOTALLY what they are doing to hurt someone. Just being younger and smaller doesn't mean they are not capable of knowingly inflicting pain.

Good point Hannah Montana (never thought id ever say that lmao) however, sometimes I believe vigilate justice works a heck of a lot better than locking someone up for a few years. And really, looking at the crime they committed, have they really had enough punishment?

Should they be protected from vigilante justice or should they be made to live with what they have done and the consequences of that, with no protection what so ever?

I don't think they deserve an easy ride.
But as I said - in this case vigilante justice = murder.
And whilst what they did was wrong we no longer have the death penalty in the UK and police cannot release the identities of these two without effectively killing them.

I think its incredibly sad that these children had it in them to do this, i think it is society that is to blame, i don't believe that anyone is innately evil. I think they must have witnessed that behaviour or have been hurt or something to inflict that much pain and torture upon practically a baby.

As such, i believe in forgiveness and i believe in rehabilitation. I hope that those two boys did not spend their time in prison purely being 'locked up'. I hope they had intensive therapy and that the aim of having them in prison was to fix what had obviously gone wrong in their first 10 years.

Therefore, i hope that they were released /will be released as rehabiliated, remorseful young men who wish to live a good life and give back to society what was taken from them and what they took from that poor little boy.

Like others, i think that there identities should be protected inorder to protect others from murdering. And if there received the right help in prison, then they should be of no risk to society.

Yes, people would probably murder them, rather than beat the bejeebus out of them, causing more crime, which, as someone has stated before, would be daft.

They deffinately do not deserve an easy ride though. But, the issue is people who look like an older version of the ten year old boys have been attacked as people think they are Venables or Thompson. This makes others vunerable because of their crime. People are bayin for these boys' blood, and personally I believe some of them will stop at nothing.

I do understand what everyone is trying to say.

These boys disregarded the law and therefore why should they be protected from the consequences?

Personally I don't think that it is the responsibilty of you or me to decide whether they have been punished enough. In the eyes of the law they have been.

If we were to allow these people to fall subject to vigilantism then I don't think that we would be much better than them.

Rules are there for a reason and we have to observe basic human rights regardless of the person or crime. Would you advocate vigilante justice in all cases?

As chaotic as it would be, I think vigilante justice would do better than a week in the cells for most law breakers. PLEASE NOTE: This does not mean I want it to happen.

Alot of murderers who commited really public murders get new identies, the problem lies where the media get involved and people identities are now knoen publicly, meaning they are now the target of hate crime, them and thier families. But having a new identily comes with a list of strict rules and conditions, its not as simple as being free.

The commited a crime, served thier time and got realeased, as said if thier identies where knowen then they would have been murdered most likly. I can understand people being angry and sickend by the crime, but why fight fire with fire, it doesnt make us any better than them. The problem really lies with the prison and scentanceing, you would think that getting life would mean life, but life just means 15 years, earlier in most cases.

Im my opinon, regardless of age if you commit a crime you should be severly punished, not with the lame system here, but thats going onto another issue.

Channel 4 did a drama on this topic a few years ago, Boy A it was called. All about this sort of scenario. It was very interesting, and actually quite emotional.

I resent the money that is used to provide these people (not just the boys, but similar cases such as Maxine Carr(?)) with new identities, new homes, new lives and then get further money from the state. However, I also see why it is done. Being a vigilante won't help anything or anyone.

Agreed.

If they do get new identities etc, they should damn well work for their money and housing, not just have it handed to them on a silver platter. WIth the state of the economy at the moment, i think quite a few people would seriously consider spending 15 years in prison to get a new identity and a house when they get out!

In the eyes of the law, people who rape five year olds only deserve 5-15yrs...

Prison systems are ****ed up. Someone can get life w/o parole for drug use, but can torture and kill a child and get out in 16?

Did they actually serve their time though?

I don't think the lives of a murder should be protected, when the lives of every day people are being messed with harrassed and killed for something beyond their control, and the law has nearly nothing to protect them.
Yeah, I'm talking about hate crimes.
I'll take "hate crimes against criminals" seriously when the 'justice' system takes hate crimes against law abiding citizens seriouly.

I agree pretty much whole hartedly with you here. Especially regarding the time people serve for certain crimes.

I already stated about the prison sentencing, it isnt right nor fair at times.

Yes they did serve their time.

I never said that I believed that they had been granted a fair sentence.

But I also think that the law should be the same for everybody.

Yeah I gotta agree with sentencing being stupid. Stuff like fraud and drug use should be community service and save prisons for the real criminals.
But then that is a pet hate of mine, I also think that anyone causing death by dangerous/careless driving or driving under the influence should get a driving ban for life not just a few months/years. (off topic sorry)

I think the british justice system is pretty ****ed to be honest.

When you are 10, you know what's right and wrong. And if they take someones life I think they should live the consequences of that for the rest of their lives.

i agree, i understand they were kids but are you telling me when you were 10 you would have tortured someone else to death and not realised it was wrong. When i was 10 i stole penny sweets from a corner shop but got so guilty i told my mum and she made me go back and apologise. that was my biggest sin!
im in debt and possibly getting evicted so i guess to get given a fresh slate all i have to do is kill someone. I would get put in prison, yes but i would have 3 square meals a day plus snacks, tv. internet, entertainment and wouldnt have to pay a penny for years. i would get a new identity, clear credit rating a house at the end of it! Now does that seem fair!!!!

Not all convicted murderers get all this given to them. Blame the media rather than the prison system for making it impossible for these people to come out of prison and get back in to the community without having a hate campaign following them around.

^ this.

I personally feel EXTREMELY strongly about this issue, so I apologise if I start ranting in this!!

As an auntie with 4 nephews (all between 2 and 4 years of age) I am deeply sickened byt this story. I was only 2 myself when this story emerged in the papers and I actually REMEMBER, yes, REMEMBER, how scared I felt and how sad and actually angry I was at the time I heard it on the news. I remember exactly where I was, what I was doing. What these "children" did to James Bulger was one of the most sick, twisted, inhuman and disgusted things I have ever heard of. These children knew exactly what they were doing, I was 10yrs old not long ago and I know plenty of 10yr olds, they are much more aware of their own, and other peoples, actions than people think. I am not saying these children were born evil, I believe that that is an impossibility, all children are born with an equal chance to be good or bad (leaving out any mental health problems which can increase the likelihood of negative behaviour, whether purposely or accidently). But these two children had definitely turned evil by the time they committed this crime. No person with any good in them could EVER do this to a 2yr old. They abducted, tortured and brutally murdered an innocent child. They lied when they were confronted, and then continued to show a distinct lack of respect for the law while swwearing in the courtroom. The legal system in this country appauls me. These murderers should have been in prison for life, children or nay. But they got what, about 10yrs it must have been for them have been out of jail now for some time? It's absolutely ludicrous. If they are not in prison then their identities should be available and they should face the public's disgust and hatred. it's all that they deserve. They should NOT be given another chance. I can forgive an awful lot of things, but taking the life of a child is NOT, under any circumstances, one of them.

I'm sorry if this offended anyone but imagine if it had been YOUR child, YOUR niece or nephew, YOUR little brother or sister. Could you accept the fact that you were living in the same society as the murderers without any knowledge of their whereabouts, identities etc? I know I couldn't.

Definitely agree with this as well ^^^

At least in the US, they're not. I really don't think britan would be any better.

Vigilantism has it's place in this world. It is sometimes necessary when the law cannot gain justice, which is sadly common.

And also, human rights should not be recognised when the huuman rights of another are so severely compromised. In this case, the human Right To Life WAS severely compromised.

So you would have a prisoner (who may well have been wrongly convicted) be treated like scum for their duration in prison as well as upon their release? Ex-prisoners already struggle to overcome their difficulties when released, with many falling back in to the cycle of crime.

Whilst I feel that prisons should cut back on things like Sky TV and games consoles, there should at least be basic living standards and we should give these people access to things like education and skill sets.

I am completely against vigilantism, I see it as no different to any other type of crime.

Agreed.

I said that is "sometimes" necessary. I am not condoling it in ALL circumstances. But under circumstances such as this where there is no doubt as to who committed the crime, then yes, I think it is acceptable. The "law" did not do their job in this case, 16yrs for the LIFE of a child? That can't be right in anybody's book. It's job is supposed to bring justice to this God foresaken country but they can't seem to do that anymore. What would your opinion be if they had only gotten 2yrs for this crime? Or it had been decided that they HAD done it, without a doubt, but had escaped conviction due to their age?

Crime is crime. As, luckilly, our country doesnt believe in capital punishment, once the prisoner has done their time, they should be allowed a second chance at life. A chance to make a positive difference to society.

I have a 2 year old son, and i am deeply sickened and saddened by what these boys did, and i know wonderful 10 years olde who could never do this. But i believe i wouldnt feel any differently about these young men, I would do everything in my power to forgive and show them forgiveness.

Those men, deserve another chance at life and they deserve to live a safe life. But again i repeat, they should only be released when they are deemed safe to society.

I feel they should have been given longer prison sentences. I also feel the public should know why venables has been sent back to prison. Obviously he was not given proper rehabilitation if he is back inside already.

But at the end of the day, when someone is released from prison they have served their time and I believe the slate should be wiped clean. Not saying to forget the seriousness of what they have done, but its not our place as the public to carry out the justice we believe to be right.

Different people's ideas of when it would be 'acceptable' will be different. That's why it is always wrong.

The law, as I understand it, did do its job in this case. Sixteen years is more than a lot of others get. What do you see as justice? They did their time, like other criminals do. The media have made it impossible for these people to be released with a chance of living a semi-normal life.

In my opinion these people don't DESERVE a normal life after taking away anothers. I see it as the same for all murderers, not just these two. If you take a life then you should spend the rest of YOUR life paying for that. I don't think they should just be kept in prison the entire time, it's a waste of space and money. They should all serve a set time (20-30yrs in my opinion) and then be tagged and used for good in the community (under strict supervision). I think you can only say that someone has "done their time" if they have done the time SUITABLE for the crime. If you are referring to the time that they are sentenced to they could have been sentenced to 2 DAYS imprisonment (I'm using an extreme example to get my point across) and they would have "served their time"? I don't think so. A life for a life, maybe it shouldn't be taken away in the same way but they SHOULD lose their rights, besides the basic ones obviously.

Also I don't think that anyone who was ever sick enough to do this to a child will EVER be mentally stable enough or safe enough to have in roaming free in the society and "not prove a threat". Somebody who is disturbed as badly as these kids must have been, will ALWAYS be disturbed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

this crime was not only horrific, it was also PLANNED. Concluding that these children knew exactly what they were doing, I odn't think there is any confusion over this fact.

I'm sure most murderers in the UK get somewhere between 7 and fifteen years, but that could be wrong. I would increase the time, but it's wrong to send someone to prison and then continually treat them like scum once released. Is it really fair to punish someone for what could have been something stupid and childish for the rest of their lives? I'm not talking just about the Bulger case, but all cases.

What about cases of self defence, or when someone has 'snapped'? They still take away someone's life but they won't be punished as harshly.

The problem with vigilantism is no one can decide wether it's fair or not. We have a justice system for a reason! To ensure that punishment for a crime is fair and proportional and we have trial by jury so members of a public are deciding wether someone is guilty or innocent in a controlled environment whilst examining all of the available evidence. Do you think vigilantes hear the case for the defence aswell?

>.<
Would you like it if someone told you that because you were a self harmer you will always be a self harmer and are always going to be disturbed and always going to be a threat to yourself? Just what are you basing this judgement that they will always be disturbed on, are you a trained psychiatrist specialising in forensice? Have you studied the outcomes of other people with a similar crime in their past?
I think perhaps you are being very subjective rather than objective and you need to try and put your emotions aside and try and consider rationally wether it is actually true to know that someone can never move on from their past.

If he was given another identity and another chance to life then why have the media got access to information that he is back in prison?

-

I find this whole thing very difficult. A very young child lost his life in the most horrific of ways at the hands of two young boys. Justice just doesn't exist in these sort of cases - no amount of punishment is going to remove the horrible images from the victim's mothers mind. No amount of rehabilitation is going to make it "ok" and it's not going to repair the lives of the parents of the criminal boys.

I don't think it's any of our business to know what Venebles did to get himself put back in jail. This should just be laid to rest. Let the Bulger family get on with their lives as best they can without this being dragged up over and over.

Lets not forget, those boys were 10 when they committed this crime. I imagine any amount of time in jail at that age would really mess you up - he could have very easily turned to drugs, theft to make some money or something along those lines. Also, I wonder what chance there is of institutionalization in this case? (I also wonder if that's the right word...)

Aside from that...In terms of protection, yes, I think he should be protected. No he shouldn't have everything handed to him by the Government, he should have to get out there and face life like every other ex-criminal.
Rehabilitation (I imagine) doesn't just end in prison. I would like to think/hope there are programs in place to help these people integrate into society and repay their debt to the community etc. I find it hard to imagine that anyone should just be kicked out the back door and left to the masses. I struggle to understand why anyone thinks it's right for this man to be tortured and taunted by anyone in the outside world....one crime does no deserve another, that would make us as bad as the criminals.

Bit waffly, not sure if I actually got my point across but yeah

The media have probably got access through one of the few people who will know who he really is, or through the Ministry of Justice themselves.

I'm sure I read that he has had a lot of drug problems since his release, which isn't surprising considering the type of environment (both physically and socially) he will have been released in to.

And because Heidi said everything I wanted to, but so much better I'm going to quote her on this new page.

My honest answer to that question is yes. Because I do believe that if you self harm or have an eating disorder etc then that will always be a part of you and a part of your life. There will always be the possibility of relapsing and that is something that all recoverers need to bare in mind. Self harm or anorexia or bulimia may be a part of your life for only a short while, but the rest of your life will always be spent in recovery. You can't 100% recover from these things, it will always be a part of your learned coping mechanism.
And I would also like to point out that one of my best friends who I have known for 8yrs has recently been convicted of rape and has also been charged with GBH. He's been diagnosed with schizophrenia, bipolar, anxiety, BPD, psychosis and split personality. He suffers from dilusions and doesn't always know what on earth is going on, he also suffers from severe memory loss caused by his psychosis as a way of blocking out unpleasant memories. He is one of my very closest friends, but I know that he is not a stable person even when he is on all of his medication. Even as his best friend I realise that it would not be safe to have him just roaming the streets. He needs almost constant, strict supervision. I'm glad that he's in prison, not only because it will ensure he has to take his medication but he can't hurt anymore people.
I think that the claim that I'm being subjective and not objective is really quite unfair.
I realise it was unnecessary to bring that up but I want to make my point very clear that it is not just my emotions ruling my opinion on this matter.

I'm a little bit confused by your story. In the UK if he was so ill that he wasn't in control of his actions he would not be in prison, he would be in a secure psychiatric unit.
These boys were sent to prison, not to hospital and that would strongly suggest that they were not mentally ill, therefore whilst your friends case is very sad, it isn't really comparable with this case.
I'm sorry you feel me calling you subjective was unfair but some of the words you used e.g "deeply sickened, twisted, evil,disgusted,hatred" are all very emotive language. Which would suggest that your opinions are based on your emotions which is pretty much the definition of objectivity.

As for your point about recovery from self harm or eating disorders, then I guess that explains quite a lot about your opinion. I'm just really glad I don't have the same one, there'd be no way I'd be able to fight to recover if I truly believed I would never be wholly free from it!

^ this.

Apparently as well, of the two boys venables was the one who showed most remorse at the time and was lead to some extent by thompson.
This makes me think that this has perhaps messed him up the most and so it wouldn't surprise me if he has turned to drugs or drink or whatever and landed back in prison. We don't know what he has done anyway, it might be as small as missing a curfew.

For a 11 year old to be tried in an adult court must have been frightening and confusing especially with things like their prison van getting attacked etc.

Yes, most 10 year olds know the difference between wrong and right, if they are brought up in a loving environment and everything, but something clearly when wrong somewhere along the line with these two.

Everyone deserves a second chance.

^ completely agree, u have put this so well

The thing is I am in NO way saying these boys didn't know what they were doing, they knew fullwell, but I would argue that for a ten year old to take those actions something must have gone badly wrong. Normal ten year olds don't have that occur to them.

i think it depends on what he has done. they have to keep his identity a secret at the moment so as not to jeopardise the case thats going on at the moment. i suppose he may be unfairly convicted if his identity is known.

but if the news reports are true about child porn and he is convicted, then i believe he should lose the right to keep his anonymity because he has already been given a chance and has thrown it in our faces.

if he is still a danger then society needs to be protected from him, not the other way around. people might argue that he would be at risk of harm from other inmates in prison if he was convicted and his identity revealed, but i dont see why we should continue to shield him from the consequences of his actions. other adults who are convicted on child porn charges do not have their identities protected.

of course its all speculation because no one really knows if he is involved in child porn or if its just media fabrication.

they destroyed their chances of having a normal life at 10 to the entirety of society... that for whatever reason they grew up to have those kinds of personalities, is horrid.. i feel sorry for them.. at 10 years old the world is still a very literal place.. i wonder if at this age they know they can change themselves, or if theyll be stuck as those 10 year old brutes forever.. its a shame..