Strangeways on TV, anyone seen it?? MH in prisons

[singing_in_the_rain]

Has anyone watched the latest episode of the documentary about Strangeways??

It was about their healthcare wing, and raised a lot of issues about mental health in prisons

I was just shocked at how different mine and the prisons definition of a mental health problem is.. How can seriously self harming men be "cleared of any mental health problems"?? Disturbed and unpredictable people, really badly hurting themsleves. How is that not mental illness?

I was also hit by the sentence describing a man who was deemed not to have any mental health problems "so it must be anger management or a personality disorder instead"

This has really made me question the validity of my own problems, how i should view my borderline pd diagnosis, i'm confused about what mental illness 'is'

Please, if anyone has seen the programme and/or has any views on this, please help me sort through these thoughts!!

[xlaurenx]

I have seen it yes and i found it really good. :-D

[Tig]

There were many things that I found quite inconsistent with what Doctors/Nurses have said in real life to me. So please, don't question the validity of your diagnosis. A personality disorder IS a mental health disorder. I think it was wrong of them to say that. I believe it is probably a lack of understanding which isn't great when being said to the nation!

I won't write about some of the things I knew were inconsistent because it was about the very graphic self harm but it was just another sign to me that it's not totally accurate.

Take care x

[ASkatersDream...]

Something to put out.

Yeah ive seen it and quite enjoyed it but not seen this weeks yet.

With you saying someone who self harms i dunno how the police works but the thougbt i just had. His life before prison waa he self harming? If no he would be clear of mh issues untill he got sent to prision wherr he started cutting

dunno what you make of that x

[Merc]

Have heard that some 'play crazy' because the MH wings are safer, etc.
One (on a different show) admitted that was what he was doing, others admitted to cutting/making an attempt to be moved...
Not saying that's all of it, but a part.

[Merc]

There were many things that I found quite inconsistent with what Doctors/Nurses have said in real life to me. So please, don't question the validity of your diagnosis. A personality disorder IS a mental health disorder. I think it was wrong of them to say that. I believe it is probably a lack of understanding which isn't great when being said to the nation!

I won't write about some of the things I knew were inconsistent because it was about the very graphic self harm but it was just another sign to me that it's not totally accurate.

Take care x

[roiben]

Don't forget that this programme has been filmed and taken to an editing suite. The full story of what is going on, what has been said and the context may not be present in the programme.

I agree with others here - do not take it as a validation, or invalidation of your own situation.

Roiben x

[ravenclaw]

this may not be part of this disscussion but i watch with the family and have to put up with negative comments about mental health

[Optimus Pirate]

I was just shocked at how different mine and the prisons definition of a mental health problem is.. How can seriously self harming men be "cleared of any mental health problems"?? Disturbed and unpredictable people, really badly hurting themsleves. How is that not mental illness?


First of all, I would like to point out that self-harming is not equivalent to a mental illness. People can self-harm without being mentally ill, just as people an be mentally ill without self-harming. Whilst in many cases self-harm is a symptom of mental illness, this is not always the case. People self-harm for many reason (because voices tell them to, to feel pain/emotion, as a coping mechanism) and in prison this is no different. Just because someone has learnt that a valid way for them to cope with stress (in this case often the stress of being locked away from reality) is for them to harm themselves, this does not equate to mental illness.

I was also hit by the sentence describing a man who was deemed not to have any mental health problems "so it must be anger management or a personality disorder instead"

My second point is with regards to the issues surrounding mental health problems and personality disorders. I think the misunderstanding here is that the type of personality disorder has not been specified. Although most personality disorders are indeed of a psychiatric nature there are some (anti-social personality disorder for example) which has some roots in psychiatric nature, but is also very strongly based in behavioural and environmental aspects and are thus not always seen as being an issues with mental health as such.

Finally, having myself watched the programme, I feel the need to remind you that only ONE person in that hour long episode had any psychological training, and that was the psychiatrist who was features for about a total of 3 minutes if that. None of the nurses or prison wardens within the episode would have been trained in either psychiatry or forensic psychology. As such it would be perfectly understandable for them to not fully understand the differences and similarities between mental illnesses and personality disorders.

With regards to your own diagnosis, nothing should allow you to undermine what you have been told by specialists who have seen you. Only someone who has seen you and assessed you can understand your unique group of symptoms, and thus pass judgement on what your possible diagnosis is, therefore do not let anything you read or hear interfere with that in any way.

[Sunshine]

i saw this and that comment about personality disorders really hurt me because i worry people think im making stuff up or exsagerating all the time, i watched it with my partner and told him how it upset me that she could say that and he said that he has to live my borderline and that it is a mental illness because the way i behave is not "normal" and i shouldnt let her opinion effect me because she has never had to live with someone who has it, so wouldnt know what its like! so that reasured me people dont think im just being attention seeking!

but i totally get that it made you question your diagnosis! *hugs* im just trying to put it to the back of my mine and forget about it! i just hope i never end up in prision and needed help for my borderline if i got responses that i was being "bad" and not "mad" as she put it!

x

[Optimus Pirate]

i shouldnt let her opinion effect me because she has never had to live with someone who has it, so wouldnt know what its like! so that reasured me people dont think im just being attention seeking!


Not to be argumentative, but how do you know this? I don't think it is fair to pass judgement on what she may or may not have lived with in her life. There are literally hundreds of different types of psychiatric disorders and mental illnesses and personality disorders, so just because someone doesn't have an understanding of one, does not mean they have never suffered from another themselves or had a loved one suffer from another.
I will however stick by what I said in my previous post about not letting anything you read or hear alter your perception of your own illness or diagnosis - each condition, while always having consistent markers or symptoms, will differ between every person that has it, and thus it is between you and those who have assessed your own personal mental health issue as to how it is defined.


i just hope i never end up in prision and needed help for my borderline if i got responses that i was being "bad" and not "mad" as she put it!

I think this is a very cruel representation of the prison system. While I will be the first to agree that there are problem within it, I think that the prison service (I talk her of the service in the UK - the model that Strangeways is introducing in the documentary and the model which I am familiar with) does a fantastic job of caring for those individuals who have alternative needs. Unfortunately in some cases it is the truth that the prisoners are 'bad' rather than being 'mad' and this is not a reflection on the care provided within the service to those with mental health issues.
It is a commonly accept premise that some people commit crimes due to mental illness, some due to environment, social conditioning, many other things, while some people (and this lies most commonly with opportunistic criminals) commit the crimes because they can, because there is no reason not to, and as such they would be classified as 'bad' rather than 'mad'.


Having just rewatched this episode the comment made is this
I think the picture from what we're getting at the moment is that it's more behavioural. It's more bad, rather than mad. I mean some of it might be adjustment to finding himself in prison, but it's difficult when he won't comply with us and you can't really make a full psychiatric assessment.

First of all, it is important to note that the nurse in this case has no mental health training. Secondly, as she clearly state, the prisoner is not co-operating to allow a mental health assessment to be carried out and therefore it is unknown if he has any condition, however based on her experience she is implying that she thinks it is more a behavioural problem. This does not mean that she is downplaying the seriousness of any possible mental condition which he may have, but is however concerned about where his behaviours are coming from, and whether there is a psychiatric nature or not.
In this particular case, if the prison in question was to comply with staff, and undergo a psychiatric examination then the staff would be able to help him with his mental health needs, and if require he would be transferred to a secure psychiatric hospital. However since he refuses to comply the staff are left with no option but to treat him as though there is no mental illness, and to support in whatever ways possible based on the likelihood that his criminal offences are behavioural. In cases such as this, once the prisoner was no longer acting out and was allowed back onto a general wing instead of the segregation unit then they would be given anger management therapies as well as CBT and other therapies by the prisons psychology department.
Even in prison people are entitled to human rights - in this case the man is acting out and demonstrating his human right to free will in that he does not wish to undergo a psychiatric examination. Additionally other aspects must be considered such as confidentiality and personal safety. No psychiatrist or forensic psychologist could be left alone with a prisoner as violent as this individual, however it would not be ethically viable to have multiple members of staff in the room while a psychiatric examination was being undertaken.

[fawkes]

My brain is a little sluggish today but I agree in a much less eloquent way with what K said above.

Many people have or know people who have emotional difficulties - and not everyone processes what they know or observe the same way.
It's unfair in the same way you feel you are judged harshly to make those sort of judgements - or indeed to lump a whole prison/health system into one category - we all have flaws and faults.

This being said this is just my opinion - which itself is open to fault.

[xlaurenx]

being "bad" and not "mad" as she put it!

x
that actually really made me angry

[Optimus Pirate]

that actually really made me angry

Can i ask why it made you angry?

[Mrs Sam]

I dont know what i made of it. I mean they admitted they didnt have specific MH training and they had to put up with some horrendous stuff and people lying about being mentally ill etc so i can see how their perceptions were different to how we'd like them to be. I don't think you can cross their views across to us because the situation is so incredibly different and their views reflect this. I'd probably have similar views to them if i had to do their jobs and i am mentally ill!

[xlaurenx]

Can i ask why it made you angry?
I guess because she did say more bad then mad etc and the whole reason he was on that... unit i guess was for being ill. She has no mh training herself and so how could she really tell? Yes her experience might help but not in all situations so it made me anger when she was saying the whole bad/mad stuff as he could have been ill i cant remeber if he was lying or not but still.

[Optimus Pirate]

I guess because she did say more bad then mad etc and the whole reason he was on that... unit i guess was for being ill. She has no mh training herself and so how could she really tell? Yes her experience might help but not in all situations so it made me anger when she was saying the whole bad/mad stuff as he could have been ill i cant remeber if he was lying or not but still.

I believe initially the reason he was taken to the healthcare wing was because we was attempting to harm himself in his cell on the general wing. As the prison has a duty of care towards all prisoners they must then take him to somewhere that he can receive appropriate medical attention for any wounds, and also be monitored appropriately to avoid any further harm.

You are right that yes, he could have been ill, however from her perspective, and based on no medical background (since he would not comply to allow for a psychiatric examination), the way to provide the best immediate care for him is to treat him as though he is 'bad' rather than 'mad'. Here he can be offered anger management and behavioural courses, which will enable him to get his life back on track far better than assuming he has a mental health problem and pumping him full of unnecessary medication. And again you are right to point out that she has no mental health training, however she most likely has years of experience as a nurse and also working with violent individuals who are in a very unique set of conditions. People within a prison population do not act in the way the 'regular' members of society would act - they are in prison because they have developed habits (for whatever reasons) which prevent them from operating within the bounds of the law. The nurse who made the comment has most likely seen several hundred prisoners in her time in the job, and will have a very good understanding of their mentality, and thus are probably quite well qualified in that respect to be able to spot people who's actions are of a behavioural basis rather than a psychiatric one.

[singing_in_the_rain]

Really appreciate all the replies guys, thanks v much for your views

Just watched todays episode...even more shocked and horrified..that a severely mentally ill patient can be left for weeks, not eating, not sleeping, talking gibberish, in clear distress, because he might have been faking it. I do not blame the prison staff for this, but why oh why was he not more closely assessed by psychiatrists/ mental health teams, why did it take weeks for an assessment to happen??

This would not happen in the community, I am so shocked by this.

I feel guilty for the help i recieve, when much MUCH iller people, like those in prison, are not getting it. I don't know how to deal with that. If I were in prison, I would be told I had no mental health probelms, that I was 'just' a self harmer. Sorry, cant get my head around all of this!!

Anyone else watched? Views?

[Tig]

I did watch it last night and I thought it was very sad that the man was left for so long without psychiatric treatment. It seemed like the Nurses were very caring though and were working in the best of there remits. It was so sad though and I hope that he is receiving the best care now.

[Keyboard Warrior]

To my knowledge of forensic psychiatry - if someone had a severe mental illness & were a danger within a sense of the law (as in, breaking the law & would have to go to prison but it wouldn't be appropiate), they would be placed in a secure hospital/unit as it would be more appropiate for their mental health needs.

[Spork.]

why did it take weeks for an assessment to happen??

This would not happen in the community, I am so shocked by this.

I feel guilty for the help i recieve, when much MUCH iller people, like those in prison, are not getting it.


I'm sorry to point this out but this DOES happen in the community. Very very often. I'm not sure where you are but it seems like there's a good mental health set up in your area.

I don't have a support system here. If I committed a crime because of my mental health problems I wouldn't expect soft arse treatment. Except in EXTREME cases people are still making these choices.

[Tig]

To my knowledge of forensic psychiatry - if someone had a severe mental illness & were a danger within a sense of the law (as in, breaking the law & would have to go to prison but it wouldn't be appropiate), they would be placed in a secure hospital/unit as it would be more appropiate for their mental health needs.

Thankfully he was transferred at the end of the show. I think they had to wait for a psychiatric assessment outside the prison and then he was moved :)

[Foxtrot Oscar]

[quote=Spork.;2823417]I'm sorry to point this out but this DOES happen in the community. Very very often. I'm not sure where you are but it seems like there's a good mental health set up in your area.
quote]

Yeap. This is what I was going to say. For myriad of reasons the neglect of those who are mentally ill by mental health services in the community does happen.

[Folie.]

It really annoyed me that they thought that that man was faking it the whole time, and didn't get him assessed for a very long time. It was clear he was suffering from some sort of mental illness, and the way he was dismissed was awful to watch.

[Cacoethes]

i saw this.
i was so pissed off
you could tell, even from tv that he wasnt well, you cant fake not sleeping, eventually exhaustion would take over and you would have to sleep, if you had a serious MI it wouldnt register or something like that
its sad. very sad

[Soviette]

I feel guilty for the help i recieve, when much MUCH iller people, like those in prison, are not getting it. I don't know how to deal with that. If I were in prison, I would be told I had no mental health probelms, that I was 'just' a self harmer. Sorry, cant get my head around all of this!!

Anyone else watched? Views?
This is going to sound extremely cold, but I don't think you should particularly care that you get better help than those in prison. They're the ones, 9/10 times, who have willingly commit crimes and caused other people misery and pain, possibly even loss. The ones who commit offences down to serious mental illness are put in secure facilities, not normal prisons. It's obvious there are some mental health issues amongst prisoners, but what can you expect? Some of them are being banged up in them hellholes for numerous years, locked with other potentially dangerous people. If I went to prison, I'd be the same way, hell I'm like it now.