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Old 28-12-2015, 05:55 AM   #21
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I agree with the general sentiment but find it's not a very straightforward rule.

For example, binging is a form of selfharm as is restriction imo.
What if someone is fasting and needs advice on pushing themselves to eat?
What if I'm in the middle of a binge and I use ryl for advice on how to stop?
Or is that not harmful/serious enough?
Neither will require immediate medical intervention for the majority of the time.

Where does purging fit into this?
Obviously I could not post during the act.

Or is the rule only for potentially immediate life threatening actions?
Which still would include ED behaviors a times.

As said, I agree with the general sentiment.
It just seems that this rule needs to be stated in an incredibly detailed manner.

I also feel split because yes, I sometimes get furious when people post in a casual manner about certain things that will cause a lot of worry B U T I also feel that, unfortunately, that comes with being a member on here. And sometimes I would worry about people a lot more if they didn't post when they are about or just did something dangerous. Because it gives me and others the chance to talk them into getting medical attention. I've ODed once in my life and it took a lot of convincing from others to get me to hospital which I wouldn't have gone to without those people.

And yes, it's not fair, and yes, it's not my responsibility, but on any given day I would rather have people post than not if being pushed to get medical attention saves them from permanent damage or worse.
I realize though that RYL might not be considered the appropriate place for that kind of support.
I just worry that this rule might discourage people from reaching out when they need it the most. As unfair as it is to cause such worry and concern, us it not also unfair to punish people for feeling scared and alone and unable to get the help that they need?




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Old 28-12-2015, 11:39 AM   #22
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This is something that has been increasing on the forums and it is not related to any individual member as we have dealt with this situation from multiple members.

As a mod my concern would be someone takes an overdose on Ryl and Ryl supports them and so they don't seek help. As we don't know what the details are the support we provide ultimately may mean that serious damage occurs.

I would always rather someone say I'm really struggling I'm scared I'm going to hurt myself at a point where we can try and support them or get them to a place of safety etc. then to have a post which says I've taken an overdose help as the only safe response at this point is to say you need to go to A and E or speak to the crisis team.




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Old 28-12-2015, 11:44 AM   #23
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Just to add that mumsnet sought help from outside agencies like the Samaritans to develop how the dealt with suicide posts and whilst I don't know the ins and the outs they do delete all posts where the member is actively engaging in suicidal behaviour.




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Old 28-12-2015, 01:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitty Galore View Post
I agree with the general sentiment but find it's not a very straightforward rule.

For example, binging is a form of selfharm as is restriction imo.
What if someone is fasting and needs advice on pushing themselves to eat?
What if I'm in the middle of a binge and I use ryl for advice on how to stop?
Or is that not harmful/serious enough?
Neither will require immediate medical intervention for the majority of the time.

Where does purging fit into this?
Obviously I could not post during the act.

Or is the rule only for potentially immediate life threatening actions?
Which still would include ED behaviors a times.

As said, I agree with the general sentiment.
It just seems that this rule needs to be stated in an incredibly detailed manner.

I also feel split because yes, I sometimes get furious when people post in a casual manner about certain things that will cause a lot of worry B U T I also feel that, unfortunately, that comes with being a member on here. And sometimes I would worry about people a lot more if they didn't post when they are about or just did something dangerous. Because it gives me and others the chance to talk them into getting medical attention. I've ODed once in my life and it took a lot of convincing from others to get me to hospital which I wouldn't have gone to without those people.

And yes, it's not fair, and yes, it's not my responsibility, but on any given day I would rather have people post than not if being pushed to get medical attention saves them from permanent damage or worse.
I realize though that RYL might not be considered the appropriate place for that kind of support.
I just worry that this rule might discourage people from reaching out when they need it the most. As unfair as it is to cause such worry and concern, us it not also unfair to punish people for feeling scared and alone and unable to get the help that they need?
I agree with the second paragraph up here. I also think for this to work effectively it needs to be applied consistently and I think that's difficult when the lines between OK/not OK are so blurred.




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Old 28-12-2015, 01:47 PM   #25
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I second everything Lana has said.

Especially this bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitty Galore View Post
And yes, it's not fair, and yes, it's not my responsibility, but on any given day I would rather have people post than not if being pushed to get medical attention saves them from permanent damage or worse.
I realize though that RYL might not be considered the appropriate place for that kind of support.
I just worry that this rule might discourage people from reaching out when they need it the most. As unfair as it is to cause such worry and concern, us it not also unfair to punish people for feeling scared and alone and unable to get the help that they need?



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Old 28-12-2015, 01:56 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crysainta View Post
The moderators used to put a thread in the place of the thread they moved/deleted. It would say something about the member needing support. That's not a perfect solution, but neither is anything else.
A person in extreme distress is not going to be thinking of any rules, so maybe this "rule clarification" is more so others will understand why some threads are removed from view. Do moderators contact the member with information on how to seek immediate help? That might help with the situation.
Quite a few good points.

The posting of another thread to replace the removed one could be a very good idea(though not perfect, indeed, but what is?). I think it would help the member who is struggling know they are not alone in this, and they deserve all the support they can get.



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Old 28-12-2015, 02:32 PM   #27
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Just to play devils advocate if another thread was posted to replace the removed one what is to stop the member then posting on that under the influence/ while they are still engaging in behaviours?



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Old 28-12-2015, 03:58 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by random.swirls View Post
This is something that has been increasing on the forums and it is not related to any individual member as we have dealt with this situation from multiple members.

As a mod my concern would be someone takes an overdose on Ryl and Ryl supports them and so they don't seek help. As we don't know what the details are the support we provide ultimately may mean that serious damage occurs.

I would always rather someone say I'm really struggling I'm scared I'm going to hurt myself at a point where we can try and support them or get them to a place of safety etc. then to have a post which says I've taken an overdose help as the only safe response at this point is to say you need to go to A and E or speak to the crisis team.


Those are fair points and I wouldn't dismiss them. I understand the need to protect the site, members, staff etc. Certainly some threads, posts would need to be altered, removed etc. My comments about "allowances" weren't meant to counter or negate any broad rules.

Sometimes I just see a gap where a more strict adherence to the rule might be worse than a slightly more liberal application. Perhaps posts deemed questionable could be removed instead of a whole thread? That way maybe posters can see they made some posts that cross the line vs being labeled manipulative or something and shut down. I don't know how many threads you see but one I'm thinking of had (I think) more good in it than bad. While the bad called for examination I didn't think it was due to wanton actions. I've seen worse tbh.

To be even more plain, there are times when I have more concern for some people who I see edging closer to serious hardship than away from it. I always see where people's situations can change for the better but the people suffering often don't. I never worry and think "oh so and so is doomed" but I do see people flirting ledges so to speak. There are handful here now.

In the past, if people wee having psychotic episodes and posting about them, I used to just ignore them. "Ah well, they are lost between the ears at the moment and I'll get back with them when things smooth out". Lots of times that works. There are times when it doesn't though and I pay more attention to people with command voices or who fall into their own machinery and get lost there (too many meds often make this worse).

There was a girl here who used to post about voices telling her to do "this and that" and one day she just went out a window. I had never really noticed her much but going back and reading posts I could see she was in more trouble than people realised. So many people talk about problems every day its easy to get a tougher skin. This gal seemed like just another person with a problem because for the most part she seemed normal and high functioning. However she had her episodes where she was being tormented as if in Dante's inferno.

Now I look at some people having episodes as akin to crying babies. Lots of people will say "Oh let the baby cry - you'll spoil it if you pick it up every time". I used to think that made sense. Then I thought "well its just a baby without reason" and needs some kind basic interaction just to sense its not alone. That's how I see some of these people who slip into "episodes". I've even seen people talking about being compelled to harm or kill others but they sense something is wrong with that. I don't usually see those threads closed/removed (then again I might have missed it) and thats probably good as long as posts are imbued with a spirit of remorse.



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Old 28-12-2015, 04:21 PM   #29
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I think you all have valid points. I'm sorry for the worry caused when threads are moved off the boards. That was never our intention.

We move a thread when it's becoming out of hand or moving really quickly so we can discuss it without it being continously updated/further rules broken. I appreciate closing threads or a warning post or something might have been better in terms of the worry caused but we try to act as quickly as possible. Again, I'm sorry for that.

Please do keep making suggestions because it helps us with our future actions.





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Old 28-12-2015, 04:34 PM   #30
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As someone who had their thrad removed I think you should considor how you go about removing threads. A PM saying why and offering alternative support. Or something.

I agree with Jack though.

I was really out of it when I posted. I didn't know i was breaking the rules. I needed help and my only source of support was removed. I ppreciate I should hae sought real life support but I needed help doing that. I wasn't aware there was a crisis team really.




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Old 28-12-2015, 05:07 PM   #31
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There are alternative means of support stickied and posted all around the site. It's not the moderators job to provide support and help to those in crisis, it's their job to maintain the rules and keep things relatively safe and smooth sailing. I know a couple people have mentioned, well why don't they provide resources, but the resources are there. Perhaps a giant thread with all of them linked might be something to consider, as they are kind of hard to find sometimes.



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Old 28-12-2015, 05:11 PM   #32
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Can I just make a plea that this thread is not about an individual member, thread or post instead it is about multiple members, multiple threads and multiple posts.

So what may be suitable in an individual case may not be suitable across all cases and as a result the mods have to make their own judgements which isnt always straightforward but as an example the suggestion around deleting posts and not thread is often done already as recently a post was edited for this reason but it was one post so the thread stayed.




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Old 28-12-2015, 05:14 PM   #33
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The only thing I have to add at the moment in an attempt at reassurance is that, even though the opinions in this thread may differ, I feel a strong sense that we're all on the same side in that we all care very much about members and want to help, and hope to find the best ways of going about this.

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Old 28-12-2015, 05:14 PM   #34
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Is there any way the mods could add links to services such as the Samaritans in the automated pms for thread of this nature when they are closed. Instead of just closing the thread with the normal message?

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Old 28-12-2015, 05:20 PM   #35
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Sorry, I shoudldn't have brought up my presonal issue




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Old 28-12-2015, 05:27 PM   #36
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As someone who has (with difficulty) posted about feelings of harming others I would sense that most people who make posts as such feel at that time that something is not right, even if the feelings are ambivalent. I know that when I felt like that, I was confused and distressed and didn't know I would come out of that episode feeling very differently.

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Old 28-12-2015, 05:29 PM   #37
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^Me too. I don't even know what rule I broke, what I wrote or did.




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Old 28-12-2015, 06:28 PM   #38
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That's not really your call.




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Old 28-12-2015, 06:44 PM   #39
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Then leave it to the mods to tell me.




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Old 28-12-2015, 06:47 PM   #40
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Cat, no offence, but what Jodie is saying is related to the topic of this thread, and if I'm not mistaken, the mods themselves haven't said anything about not discussing specific situations on here.

Jodie, it may be more helpful though if you discussed it with them via pm, as they may be able to help clarify exactly what happened?
I'm not sure I'm allowed to say this(I apologise if I'm not), but it may have been because you were under the influence of alcohol, combined with meds while you were posting in the thread, and that would technically class as posting while 'actively engaging in self-harm'.

[I understand that it shouldn't be discussed publicly, however this thread is related to this very issue?]



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