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Old 07-03-2013, 12:35 AM   #21
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Oh dear, I seem to have killed yet another thread - admittedly one that I started myself. But it does seem to me that, above all else, our security as a nation is the ultimate imperative ...

And, despite my former posts, I haven't yet been locked up (as I would no doubt have been had Germany prevailed all those years ago). But don't for a moment imagine that war/terrorism has gone away - it hasn't, and despite the politician's hopes that they'll be able to duck out yet further, it will return to haunt and yet depose them in due course.

Tony (no clink of handcuffs yet in sight - this is actually a democracy, and let's not forget it).




Never surrender.


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Old 07-03-2013, 08:43 AM   #22
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But don't for a moment imagine that war/terrorism has gone away
How could anyone have a hope of thinking that.



Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.

There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.


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Old 07-03-2013, 03:16 PM   #23
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I'm so naive that I don't even know what ECHELON is - can someone please explain. I'm surely entitled in a democracy to express views on an innocent and well-meaning site such as this ...

Tony. (though I hope there are in fact safeguards in place to intercept bad bastards on the net - and, equally, I hope that my perhaps puerile posts are not distracting anyone from their proper duties).




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Old 07-03-2013, 04:25 PM   #24
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ECHELON is the monitoring system that monitors communication in 5 countries (UK,UKA, Canada, Aus, NZ I think). Because of the legalities of spying on your own citizens, each other country spies on us, and we trade data if it's useful. Only officially acknowledged by the governement in recent decades, the US government has never acknowledged it. Contrary to popular belief it only scans a tiny percentage of data so it's really hit and miss what it picks up, but it can understand context (so doesn't blindly search for words). There are lots of other systems used, but for obvious reasons we don't tend to know much about them. The UK Governement has recently set aside a huge amount of money for a new communication analysis/monitoring system, as well as new laws on how internet service providers must record information.

Convinced that the best investment for defence money is digital communication yet? :P



It doesn't matter where you come from; it matters where you go.
No-one gets remembered for the things they didn't do.
We won't all be here this time next year,
so while you can take a picture of us.
We're definitely going to hell,
but we'll have all the best stories to tell.


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Old 07-03-2013, 06:11 PM   #25
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The UK needs more people with the skills, ability and desire to contribute to its digital defence. I'm not sure we have it.

I don't see the point in comparing today's situation to that of the 1930s, since everything is entirely different. Wars are fought differently, for a start.

I would love to see the welfare budget come down, but there needs to be jobs for people to take, and there isn't quite enough, especially in some areas.

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Old 07-03-2013, 06:25 PM   #26
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My uni offers cryptography as a 3rd year module, which is reasonably new. And the class is so packed it's hard to find a seat. In recent years there has been a lot more investment in this in maths, computing and engineering.



It doesn't matter where you come from; it matters where you go.
No-one gets remembered for the things they didn't do.
We won't all be here this time next year,
so while you can take a picture of us.
We're definitely going to hell,
but we'll have all the best stories to tell.


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Old 07-03-2013, 07:32 PM   #27
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We don't need hundreds of thousands of troops for wars of attrition any more, he who controls the sky controls the battle field. Tanks, troops, etc are no match for a well targeted air strike. Just watch the videos on youtube of incredibly accurate and powerful JDAM strikes, you could have the most advanced tank armour in the world yet that sort of fire power is still going to turn you into finely powdered burnt toast...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilo2wxk_KMA"]Insurgents targeted By 9 x 1000lb JDAM - YouTube[/ame]


People might not like it but increasingly advanced drones, targeted air strikes, cyber warfare, etc are the future. And for that you don't need hundreds of thousands of personnel.



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They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
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And, without being in the least patronising, it's nice to know that the word defence can still be spelt correctly, even in the outermost reaches of the former Empire. And we still have the Test Matches to come shortly ...

Tony.

Defence vs. defense


"Defence and defense are different spellings of the same word. Defense is preferred in American English, and defence is preferred in all other main varieties of English, including Australian, British, and Canadian English. The spelling distinction extends to most derivatives of defence/defense, including defences/defenses and defenceless/defenseless. But the words defensive, defensiveness, and defensively have an s everywhere.

Though defense is now the American spelling, it is not American in origin. The OED and Google Books reveal examples of the spelling from as long ago as the 1300s, many centuries before the United States existed. That spelling continued to appear a fraction of the time through the 19th century, when it was taken up by American writers. Today, to the chagrin of those who dislike American English, the spelling is gaining ground throughout the English-speaking world."

http://grammarist.com/spelling/defence-defense/


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Old 07-03-2013, 10:36 PM   #29
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I must admit, I'm of the opinion that the defence budget ought to be one of the very first things cut. Certainly, there may well be mysterious monsters going bump in the night, just waiting to drop atomic bombs on our heads and nuke us all seven ways from Christmas - but in the meantime we are cultivating a "lost generation", letting down our youth, and crippling the schools, hospitals and arts facilities that are what a country *really* needs to function.

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Old 08-03-2013, 03:54 PM   #30
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Couldn't resist a further response to all the additional posts ...

Talaiporia (what does that word actually mean for all we ignoramuses (def sp!). The Intelligence Community, as it used to exist in my day long, long ago comprised the UK, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Stuff would circulate around Whitehall marked "UK Eyes only", or "UK/US Eyes only" or whatever. NZ got itself excluded for a time by banning US warships which might have been carrying nuclear weapons from using its ports - I've absolutely no idea what the current situation is ... but I very much hope that the relationship still exists. Without a current assessment (to which I'm in no possible way entitled) I can't begin to judge the degree to which current defence spending should slant towards the digital. In my ignorance, I rather suspect that MI5's coverage of those who might wish to blow us all to kingdom come, has required very substantial expenditure (the logistics of effective coverage of a suspected potential terrorist are financially terrifying, at a wild guess, £1M per person - gosh, there's an outlet for the unfortunate jobless!)

But do be clear, at the end of the day it's boots on the ground that decides just whose country this particular patch belongs to. It's crude and awful and I greatly wish I didn't have to spell it out ...

And Persephone, hold up your hands now! We, and you, will give way to whatever outrage some outside power will wish to impose upon us. We are defeated. We are hopeless and feeble. We will live and die by your belief that everything is beyond redemption And we have no rights.

Tony.




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Old 08-03-2013, 04:02 PM   #31
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talaiporia is an emo-y old greek work. :P I've had it since I joined, some time ago.

"might have been carrying nuclear weapons" sounds like a few people might have got very upset!

Currently, 5 countries are supposed to be pooling their resources, to each spy on the other 4, and send back useful data.

I'm guessing that a large percentage of jobs are in this area; certainly, when I've been looking at graduate jobs, there are an awful lot for government agencies, particularly for those with a background in algebra, complex systems, cryptography, computing, and things helpful with keeping the country safe. They also pay very competitively, and there are huge schemes (like £20,000 bursaries to Maths graduates with a 1:1 who go into teaching) to encourage people to focus on these areas.

Future wars, indeed current wars, and national security is increasing relient on computers and software to keep us safe; we will rely on people less and less as the years go by, and hopefully one day we will no longer need to fight wars with people.

Groups like Anonymous show us just how powerful a few very clever people can be; and how vulnerable we can be to digital attacks. It sounds from your posts that you want to go back to the good old days when men were men, and wars were fought on foot, with tanks, and ships and planes. While that is still partly the case, it's an increasingly small percentage of what it takes to keep our country safe.



It doesn't matter where you come from; it matters where you go.
No-one gets remembered for the things they didn't do.
We won't all be here this time next year,
so while you can take a picture of us.
We're definitely going to hell,
but we'll have all the best stories to tell.


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Old 08-03-2013, 05:09 PM   #32
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I think your title is misleading. You didn't ask a question in the text, except rhetorical, and I think most people would agree that spending on benefits and security shouldn't be an either/or thing. There is scope to fund both.

We spend considerably more on security than a lot of countries, we also spend considerably less than a few other. We spend more on welfare than some countries, but also less than others.

You seem to see an increased risk of attack than these; why do you believe we are so likely to be attacked?

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Old 09-03-2013, 01:40 AM   #33
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Thanks, talaiporia for your explanation. I'm sorry to say that I still find it hard to pronounce - but then, at school, I found Greek even worse than Latin as a subject! And don't start me on Arabic.

As to nuclear weapons, although of course I don't know any details (and of course I should most definitely not) I very much hope that there are lots of them sailing both above and below the surface for our mutual protection. Not to be used in any belligerent way but as part of our necessary defence ...

In my day, reverting to a point you make, there was an intelligence community, which didn't involve the intelligence allies "spying" on each other. Rather, they shared what they had obtained for the benefit of all concerned. It would be obvious that there would have been an element of competition involved, but it was actually a community of allies, for the benefit of all.

And, Dreaming, I'm not for a moment suggesting that we'll be attacked tomorrow (we're almost defenceless!). But very important assessments have to be made now regarding future threats and government has to have the guts to acknowledge those threats and put an effective defence in place to counter them.

Tony (who totally applauds WSC's cry, made long ago, that "jaw-jaw is better than war-war". But if, God forbid, it should ever come to "war-war", then I do hope that the Service's cries for "more-more" will have been listened to - which certainly isn't the case at the moment.)




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Old 09-03-2013, 04:08 AM   #34
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Quote:
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NZ got itself excluded for a time by banning US warships which might have been carrying nuclear weapons from using its ports - I've absolutely no idea what the current situation is ...
All nuclear warships are still banned from our waters, I have no idea about the intelligence situation but I am pretty sure that we are in cahoots with the UK, USA etc still. There was actually a recent article about a US spyplane over here for some reason and that our govt was assisting US spies, so I assume we are ok...



Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.

There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.


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Old 09-03-2013, 06:49 AM   #35
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brittain couldnt instead of spending money on a defence force hire out a defence force of another country, or call allies to defence, as they are meant to come to? i see public works, nhs, and education as much more important than defence, a country is its people. the people are the main focus. the governments highest priority is to its people. defending them is good, but not at the cost of their health and education. and education is always bleeding for funds at a much higher rate then military, military makes do, thats what they always have done and always will do.



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Old 09-03-2013, 06:12 PM   #36
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Oh dear, Heffalump, how do I respond? You are of course fully entitled to your views, but do remember that your freedom to express them, as you now have, was bought by the blood of recent past British generations.

Of course we need the NHS, schools, welfare and all the rest, and of course people and their welfare is the ultimate priority. But isn't freedom and the ability of those people to decide for themselves just what sort of lives they should live an equal priority? Would you like to live in a Nazified UK? Do tell me (and also just what Herr Goebbels might have made of your post).

Did you go out this morning and leave your front door open with a "help yourself" sign on the front door? People will otherwise take advantage of you - some (though happily not all) are thoroughly bad bastards. But you've got to watch out for the bad'uns! Look at the lunatic Kim Jong whatever his last name is who is now threatening dire things against South Korea, an important trading partner of ours. And he has nuclear weapons! But come on and shaft us, we don't care about trivialities such as defence ...

Further letter in this morning's Telegraph (which I only actually borrow!) from Admiral Lord West, former head of the Royal Navy, emphasising just what good value Trident has been over the past many years. And still is. I can also hark back to the V-bomber force (the Valiant, Vulcan and Victor) which by their ability to deposit a load of absolute nastiness on the Soviet Union kept the peace which we are now privileged to enjoy. And also to post on RYL - aren't we lucky!

Tony (dusting off the rust on his armour).




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Old 10-03-2013, 02:18 AM   #37
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Of course, effer, you can't be responsible for your government's policy regarding nuclear weapons. But that policy does leave me wondering whether they accept that such weapons might exist at all. They should surely get real and accept that they do actually exist and are a part of the political realities and balances of modern life (you can't be that remote in your little corner down there - where I'd love to come trout fishing one of these days).

How on earth can a modern, thinking government imagine that the nuclear world can somehow pass them by ... that they'll somehow be excluded if they deny its existence?

Tony.




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Old 10-03-2013, 04:14 AM   #38
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Of course, effer, you can't be responsible for your government's policy regarding nuclear weapons. But that policy does leave me wondering whether they accept that such weapons might exist at all. They should surely get real and accept that they do actually exist and are a part of the political realities and balances of modern life (you can't be that remote in your little corner down there - where I'd love to come trout fishing one of these days).

How on earth can a modern, thinking government imagine that the nuclear world can somehow pass them by ... that they'll somehow be excluded if they deny its existence?

Tony.


I was reading a BBC article about Henry Kissinger this week. Kissenger was saying nuclear and missile technology was now so cheap and so disseminated that we are at the point where nuclear weapons will be conventional

"The danger is that we could be reaching a point where nuclear weapons would become almost conventional, and there will be the possibility of a nuclear conflict at some point... that would be a turning point in human history"

The thing is we are at that point with North Korea and regime in Iran (and I distinguish the regime from the people since the regime oppresses the people). They not only want nukes but are promising to use them 9and China is helping them both surreptitiously). People didn't take Hitler seriously and they aren't taking these people seriously now. I've seen their internal videos about the coming of the Mahdi and all that and as nuts as it is I take them seriously. They also speak of the need to target capitals in Europe and their missiles can reach there.



"Secretary of State Henry Kissinger has warned that a crisis involving a nuclear Iran is in the "foreseeable future".


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21177535

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Old 10-03-2013, 04:25 AM   #39
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Unfortunately I worry that (and this isn't a stab at American people or anyone else) that unfortunately as a very well publicised ally of America, which is a country very many others seem to want to take down a peg or two that we are actually more at risk of attack in some respects, also the chafing from previous years of countries who suffered under the British empire, I don't think those wounds have quite healed yet. However I don't think there's reason to go too overboard with defence, just be sensible and realistic about the risks presented and take adequate precautions, although I appreciate there is a biiiiiiiig difference in peoples' opinions on what adequate precautions are.

While we're at it, what are peoples' views on China as a potential world threat? Just curious :)


Last edited by Buttons. : 10-03-2013 at 03:16 PM. Reason: typo


'Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.'

['There is only one thing we say to death. Not today'.']

'We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell.’ – Oscar Wilde
‘It’s hard to dance with the devil on your back.’ Sydney Carter


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Old 10-03-2013, 05:39 AM   #40
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The thing that pisses me off about the nuclear free **** is the refusal to have nuclear power.
Now, following the earthquakes, many people are feeling extra smug and saying "now aren't you glad we didn't have nuclear power stations". Well, perhaps, but I feel that the chances of meltdown due to natural disaster are somewhat outweighed by the opportunity to produce large amounts of, lets face it, pretty comparatively environmentally friendly and renewable energy.



Even as the stone of the fruit must break
that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.

There are only two ways in which one can live their life. One is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is.


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