Lots of good stuff finally coming out of this thread. Of course, in our privileged western world, men and women have choices. But while women have to conceive and bear a child I really can't believe that after all the trauma of birth they just want to drop it and say to their man "OK, it's all yours now". Surely real life ain't like that. Had my wife said that to me I'd have been horrified - I had to get back to doing my hunter/gatherer thing in order to support them.
Of course women can have careers (tho' they have to make difficult choices regarding future families). And of course men can be the nurturers if that's what they really wan't (even if they fall short on the breast-feeding!) but they don't absolutely have to be.
But overall, look around the world and see what's natural - even if it ain't for you ...
Oh boy, what a privileged world we live in where women are actually educated and have access to basic healthcare and contraception. Aren't I a lucky duck.
Not all women choose to - or can - have families.
Not all women can breastfeed - my mum never even had the choice. As I understand it, it was a combination of my prematurity, and the medication she was on for PND/post natal PTSD.
I just don't understand it. Maybe it's because I'm young and grew up in a family with a very strong mother. But I've never once in my life for a second considered women different from me. Only difference is what is in their trousers!
tu as tant de choses à dire,
mais le tout reste enfermer.
et quand tu ne sais plus quoi dire,
tu te mets à pleurer.
Mais ça ton publique le voit pas,
tu l'incites à rêver, pendant que toi tu le regarde...
Wow, this thread has covered a wealth of "gender-ground"! As a mere man I feel well and truly outnumbered on this site - but of course I would be (new question: why do more females SH than males? Because they're more sensitive? More vulnerable (but if so who is out doing the H/G bit?)
Sensitive? Vulnerable? How about women deal with emotion differently? Women are also more likely to be diagnosed with illness, simply because they can suck it up and go see a doctor, whereas a man is more likely to lie in bed wanting to be waited upon simply because they've got a runny nose.
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But surely men have a worthwhile role to play? We go fishing, shoot deer or grouse or geese or ducks and bring them back to warm the family hearth and to feed the families' bairns. What the hell more do you want?
Who has said that men didn't have a worthwhile role to play? Although I question how many men actively go and hunt these days, even in poorer countries. I don't need or want a man to 'provide' for me, I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself. A relationship is more than predefined tasks and chores.
Quote:
But while women have to conceive and bear a child I really can't believe that after all the trauma of birth they just want to drop it and say to their man "OK, it's all yours now". Surely real life ain't like that. Had my wife said that to me I'd have been horrified - I had to get back to doing my hunter/gatherer thing in order to support them.
No one is "dropping" their child on the man... If/when a child is born I'd damn well expect my partner to be doing his equal share of looking after it. Women have to go do their earning of the bread as well these days, and you no doubt expect that they should come home, look after the child, the home and have your dinner on the table by the time you stroll in the door...
Tony, I really wish you'd stop using hyperbole (and twisting of words) in every discussion, it gets us nowhere, and all it achieves is getting people's backs up and getting further off topic.
Sorry, The One Who, I was only hoping to promote a discussion! But what can I conclude from all this? That western women (who are undoubtedly spoilt when in comparison to their equivalents elsewhere) have choices that are not actually available to most women in the world.
Of course I wouldn't expect a women who had just borne my child to just drop it and leave it for me to nurture. I'd have instead wanted to go out to do the H/G bit in order to support her, as was my duty. Can you really imagine any sort of sensitive male not wanting to clasp his new-born against his chest. She would then have done at least the initial nurturing while I made my way back with the kill - and then to help.
What depths does this thread - not started by me - delve into our genders? I'm only a man but clear enough in my role. It does seem that a lot of you girls out there are confused a bit, to say the least ...
I don't feel unclear in my role. I want to be a mum, I would ideally like to share responsibility for both the upbringing of my children and the financial income with my partner, if he were to agree (incidentally, an ex-partner thoroughly expected me to do all the housework and cooking AND have a full-time job which brought in the rent - not in my lifetime!).
I don't feel 'spoilt' in comparison to some women elsewhere in the world; rather, I feel that they are mistreated and I am experiencing what should be the norm. A right to choose how I live my own life. I don't think it's a lot to expect.
Additionally, I am curious - would you consider a man reading this thread who would like what I would like (to be equally involved in child-rearing and a working career with his partner) unclear in their role? Or were you talking about something different which I have misunderstood, as often happens tbf (I am not that bright).
Maybe it could seem that women are confused because the gender roles they fall into aren't as clear cut, might that be the case at all?
I'm a female, I don't want children, I look after my male partner as much as he looks after me, often with me falling into the more "hunter gatherer" role. I don't feel confused. I've found what works for me and I don't see my role in my relationship/family/society as being overly male or female, simply because I feel little to no need for the terms male or female when it comes to roles etc (obviously sex is a different matter I'd describe myself as female in that regard), but that's just me, everyone is different.
Last edited by BridgesAndBalloons : 31-12-2012 at 02:28 AM.
There have been loads of extremely sexist comments and opinions from both sides on this - it not going anywhere and there is clearly nothing (more) to be gained from it so I'm going to close this thread now.
