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Old 28-01-2015, 10:10 PM   #41
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Except that you can say those things. You're free to do so without reprisal from the government for the most part, at least over here. For calling up parents and insulting their kids, you obviously would be fired, but you wouldn't be imprisoned. And there is nothing stopping you from calling everyone you meet a moron, and if you were to do so you would never be imprisoned. However, going back to what I said earlier, they would be free to respond, and as a result you probably you be ostracized. Free speech in this case is referring to not being in fear of the government attacking you for your opinion. However, if you are an ass, the individuals have every right to call you out on it, boycott your services, and pretty much cut you off as a member of society, all without being physically violent. And you have to take the bad with the good, because once you give someone the power to pick and choose what is "free" speech, things tend to get messy.

Edit: The reason I say "for the most part" is because most schools are controlled by the government. You of course would be fired less for your beliefs and more for not expressing them in the manner given for your job; if the kid is stupid and more fitted for McDonalds, I would assume that would be expressed in his grades.


Last edited by [redacted] : 28-01-2015 at 10:14 PM. Reason: Left out information


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Old 28-01-2015, 10:12 PM   #42
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I'm not free to do so without reprisal. If I shouted at someone on the tube, I'd probably either get an earful back or a punch in the face. If I told a child's parent's they were thick, I'd get fired. Because it isn't free speech and it's not okay.



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Old 28-01-2015, 10:25 PM   #43
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You're free to say it. It's not okay but it's not illegal. If you did any of those things you wouldn't be breaking any laws but, as you said yourself, there would be consequences which, for the most part, don't involve physical violence. You don't need the government to regulate every aspect of peoples lives when, as you pointed out, they often manage fine on their own.



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Old 29-01-2015, 02:14 AM   #44
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What sort of society will we end up with if everyone starts being deliberately foul and offensive to everyone else? We're meant to be civilised, rather than continuously at each others throats. How happy a world do these "free speechers"
think they're creating? "No, I'm here to provoke outrage, no matter how much hurt it causes, 'cos I believe in free speech." What thoughtless, selfish bullshit ...
And how dare they!

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Old 29-01-2015, 02:28 AM   #45
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Exactly, you can say pretty much what you want but if you go around name calling and being insultung dont expect people to take kindly to it or expect any friends. There are always consequences and its good to be offended by something and to speak out about it but utterly wrong for someone to get offended and start killing people.

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Old 29-01-2015, 03:40 PM   #46
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There is so much misunderstanding about what the concept of 'free speech' is, and it's muddying the waters in this discussion.

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Old 30-01-2015, 06:08 AM   #47
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Well I don't know much, but I've had to learn the hard way that people can say whatever the hell they want about me and there is nothing I can do about that, but I can do something about my reaction or lack thereof (and often it seems less stressful for myself to just ignore it instead of getting angry or even homocidal) I'm not saying everyone should go around insulting everyone else, of course there needs to be some sort of balance but I don't think we should be forced not to say things. We should be clever enough to figure out that certain things will get a bad response and then decide if it's still worth saying. Then again I've gotten selfish lately but it feels that as I said, people can say whatever about me but if I respond in any way I get jumped all over. So I'm just trying to say nothing. Really though, if someone else's comment or opinion bothers you so much that you'd want to punch them or whatever, then maybe you should look at yourself and why it bothers you so much. I've gone beyond caring what they say, things hurt but just for a little bit and then I just forget it and move on. No,point upsetting myself by listening to it. If it's said in public and others chooso to believe it, well it's no the end of the world. Now if I were to get angry and say on impulse murder someone over it, well they'd be dead and I'd be in jail, two lives wasted, but if I'd let it go and said f**k them but moved on, well all would still be ok. But i'm not clever or anything so feel free to ignore this. Normally I wouldnt even post it in case someone got annoyed with me,but if that happens it happens, I should still be able to post it, right? I'm probably writing a load of crap as usual, but oh well. What do I know about anything?

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Old 30-01-2015, 08:45 AM   #48
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Quote:
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We're meant to be civilised
Says who?

And what is "civilised"? For example, there are people who believe women shouldn't drive and that daughters can be stoned to death for 'honour' and I don't call that civilised.



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Old 30-01-2015, 01:47 PM   #49
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Yeah there is misunderstanding and its a simple issue. The government can't lock you up for saying something. Thats it.

The whole offending people issue has little to do with can you do it and more should. And if the answer is no cos someone might kill you then thankfully there are braver people than me out there who will.

There are much worse things in this world than someone being offended by a joke or cartoon or film. Disease, war, poverty, true lack of freedom of speech, the list is unfortunately too long. If you are offended by something, good it shows you care about it. So write your own joke or make your own cartoon or film. No amount of offence gives you justification for murdering people.

Secrets Hurt, i think that is pretty accurate.

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Old 30-01-2015, 02:14 PM   #50
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Says the Western world, Effer. I can't speak for Australasia!

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Old 31-01-2015, 01:18 AM   #51
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I'm glad I raised this as a subject. To what degree can you spout foul abuse and offence into the face of those who have their own strongly held beliefs in their name of religion - even if you may not believe in that religion. Of course it must be wrong for people to be afraid to express there valid opinions for fear of extreme response. But is it right that people should sneer and calculatedly deprecate that religion in the name of free speech?

Ok Folks, we'll all descend into calling each other total shits. We're all right and we'll call it free speech!

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Old 31-01-2015, 01:57 AM   #52
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Ok, again I know nothing but..

1) what sort of God would want people murdered on his behalf, or for any reason? Certainly not any God I'd want to follow. Shouldn't religion be about loving each other, not killing each other? Why is some God who may or may not even exist more important than fellow human beings?

2) one of the most important things this site (Harley himself actually) taught me was to communicate. It was important because I think a lot of mental illness and self harm can come from taking things out on ourselves rather than just telling someone. And no, im not saying to go around calling everyone shits, but we shouldn't be afraid to open our mouths in case we get murdered (to go with that extreme) I lived like that my whole life, I've finally started standing up for myself (with words not violence,) and yes I've lost friends because of it but it's ok. I don't know, if someone wants to call me a ****, well let them, i dont particularly care anymore. It does yourself no good to be oversensitive, as I've always been. But it's hard enough with mental illness to open up, without having to be afraid of being murdered for it. You sometimes just have to let things go. You're only making yourself feel bad otherwise (or them if you kill them) but whatever, im not god, or important anyway. But people shouldn't be afraid to be thems elves for fear of getting killed either that's all im trying to say. If someone es self is going around calling people shits, well they're an asshole, but do they deserve to die for it?

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Old 31-01-2015, 05:29 PM   #53
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To any degree, just as you can spout it back. You wont go to jail but people will think you are an asshole. Are you saying that if people can say what they want regardless then they will all be offensive and insulting? That whole argument is a fallacy and is itself insulting. The vast majority of people arent interested in causing offence and if your god is so small and petty that you need to defend him by killing then he should be offended and insulted for the joke he is.

Nothing should be sacred or off limits to satire, criticism or even being plain insulted. As an adult, i can take an insult and i think being offended and putting up with the occasional asshole who is out just to piss people off is a small price to pay to live somewhere where apart from another kind of asshole out there, you can say anything without fear of being killed.

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Old 31-01-2015, 10:01 PM   #54
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Tony, just for you I'll say again - what you are saying is NOT freedom of speech. If you can't discern the difference between someone coming up and personally insulting you and someone publishing material in a document you are not forced to read, then I don't think there is any point in carrying on a discussion. The UK has quite strict laws regarding things like public protests and standing in the street shouting anything deemed inflammatory. When in comes to online communications you can't even make a poor taste joke about a current event without potential police involvement, including conviction!

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Old 01-02-2015, 12:40 AM   #55
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OK The One Who, I accept that there are laws in place, though I've rarely seen them enforced. I also accept that I may be totally wrong on this issue, but for me the unnecessary denigration of other people's views or religious beliefs in a deliberately unkind way is unacceptable behaviour - and those doing so should be prepared to take the consequences though as I've said already, I don't for a second condone the Paris murders.

If a local newspaper here in East Anglia were to publish a brutal, exaggerated or untrue article about me personally or, say, about the British Army (to which I once belonged) when next I met the editor I'd invite him to publish a full apology and retraction. If he refused I'd try hard to avoid vulgar fisticuffs and would try to bring pressure to bear on him and his paper to do the decent thing; in practice I think that that sort of attack by his paper would provoke an outcry which he couldn't ignore.

All of which brings me back to my underlying belief: that cruel and unnecessary satyr is just that - cruel and unnecessary. And should be avoided if we are to exercise decent standards of behaviour towards one another. I can't believe I'm in a world of my own (cruel and unnecessary responses not required!).

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Old 01-02-2015, 02:10 AM   #56
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But the thing is, it's not the governments place to enforce other peoples distaste for that satire, unless it involves that person actively trying to physically harm you. You bring up the example of a new's organization publishing "brutal, exaggerated" stories about the military. I'm assuming based off the way you phrase it that you're unaware that it happens everyday already. You don't see the DOD or MoD sending angry letters to every small-time paper and tinfoil-hat wearing pamphleteer.
It's because most people are smart enough to know they're full of it, and if someone actually does take action they can do it without the government holding their hand the whole way. I'm not saying people can't express distaste over others words and protest against it, but it's the private citizens obligation to do so, not the governments.



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Old 01-02-2015, 04:28 AM   #57
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If a paper were to publish an untrue article about someone then they would be protected under libel laws i believe.

Publishing a bad opinion however anyone is free to do. For example, i believe the MoD is run buy a bunch of arrogant, tight fisted, short sighted, overpaid morons who could barely run a tap let alone our armed forces. Actually i would use harsher words but you get the idea. Why do i think that? Well thats not the point but i will say they have been my employer for the past 13 years so i have slightly more of an informed opinion on them.

As i said before, peoples opinion on whats offensive varies wildy so where do you draw the line? I would say we would put it in quite different places so who is right? You draw a line and someone will try to move it further and further till you draw a picture and get people calling for your head or have governments able to jail people who dare to criticise them.

Yeah the uk laws are becoming more strict every year almost.

If someone is being vile they will find most people wont listen to them and they will have whatever platform they have taken away. By people. People can generally self regulate. tv networks will not allow racists to be on their shows spouting hate. Same for radio and newspapers. Its plain bad business for places to be seen to condone offensive hate and they know most people wont accept it..

Anyway its half 3 in the morning and im tired of writing on my phone.


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Old 02-02-2015, 12:09 AM   #58
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For all my previous references in this thread to "satyr" please now read satire. I've checked in my dictionary which tells me that a satyr is a Greek woodland deity in human form with horse's ears and tail - my mistake, nor have I ever met one!

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Old 02-02-2015, 01:17 AM   #59
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Quote:
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To any degree, just as you can spout it back. You wont go to jail but people will think you are an asshole. Are you saying that if people can say what they want regardless then they will all be offensive and insulting? That whole argument is a fallacy and is itself insulting. The vast majority of people arent interested in causing offence and if your god is so small and petty that you need to defend him by killing then he should be offended and insulted for the joke he is.
I agree with this, not everyone is out to hurt and insult people, the people who are won't be entertained for long anyway.

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If someone is being vile they will find most people wont listen to them and they will have whatever platform they have taken away. By people. People can generally self regulate. .
Same point again, if someone acts that way they will soon see people walk away. No one is forced to stay and listen. Sometimes we have to put boundaries in place for ourselves, for what we will put up with and how much or little negativity we allow from others into our lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley's Dad View Post
For all my previous references in this thread to "satyr" please now read satire. I've checked in my dictionary which tells me that a satyr is a Greek woodland deity in human form with horse's ears and tail - my mistake, nor have I ever met one!

Tony.
That's funny! I'm glad you started this thread too, it has made me think. I usually stay away from replying in serious threads or ones with strong opinions since I don't believe in myself, but being the topic it is it was right to reply, even if I didn't actually contribute anything useful, but at least I'm still allowed post!

Now this next bit might seem crazy (but isn't that why I'm here lol) but ok, so I'm not religious at all, you could say music is basically my religion. Well what if someone insulted my favourite bands, would I have the right to kill them? No of course not. Even though they are actual living people, also with feelings. So what makes it ok to kill in the name of some God who as I already said, may or may not even exist? I know it's a completely different thing, but let's be crazy for a second and indulge the question. Maybe I just don't get religion, but if this God made the world and the people in it, why does he want us to kill each other? Why bother making a world just to be destroyed in his own name. Maybe I'm just stupid but if that kind of behaviour is religion then I'll stick to my music. He bands I love encourage their fans to be themselves, and that's important to me. Not that this is all about me obviously, but I don't know. Its "acceptable" to say or write anything about celebrities just because they're celebrities. But they're still real people with emotions and feelings. So why is that "ok?" Even from people who don't know them. I mean yes, if you become famous that's a risk you have to take as part of the job. But this God can get people killed on his behalf, it just doesn't seem right to me, and I've rambled on way too much (yet again) sorry about that.

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Old 02-02-2015, 07:29 PM   #60
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Hey Secrets, don't ever be afraid of posting on "serious" threads. If nobody did then there'd be no discussion at all. Your views are as valid as anyone else's and the site will be poorer without them.

This thread has already had me thinking seriously about the degree to which "free speech" is acceptable in a reasonably harmonious and balanced society - I continue to lean towards harmony rather than provocative strife. But perhaps that's just me ...

And I hope to continue to cast the occasional fly onto the water when I think that there's something worth discussing - I hadn't really expected this to last for four pages, but we're surely none of us poorer for it.

Tony.




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