What on earth is to be done about the current, massive flow of migrants from North Africa to Italy and thence onto Europe? Italy is swamped, Germany too. And here in UK we had enough immigrants from elsewhere last year to populate an entire new city, without any extra from North Africa.
Yet those risking their lives in rickety boats must be desperate, and more and more seem to be coming. Can we ignore them or should we be harsh?
This "exodus" was 100% predictable because the UN/NATO coalition went into Libya and killed Gaddafi (Hillary Clinton laughed about it "We came, we saw..he died..hahahahah") and then withdrew leaving nothing in place. Of course all this happened after the intentional destabilsation of Tunisia, Egypt (the ludicrous "Arab Spring" the BBC apologised for) and Syria. Expansion of ISIS or IS or Daesh is a direct consquence of Nato coutries and Saudis screwing around with Syria.
For years there were people who decried the West support of strongmen and dictators. There were other people who said if you destabilise the sketchy leaders/rulers much worse leaders and groups would rise. Thats what happened in Iran and thats what's happening again now. This time though, a broken and feeble West is decaying as all the lunatics come together in a surge. Rough sailing ahead. We have really really bad leaders across the board. They make everything worse with great alacrity.
Last edited by Isoverity : 14-05-2015 at 11:38 AM.
Italy is swamped, Germany too. And here in UK we had enough immigrants from elsewhere last year to populate an entire new city
Interested to know where you got these stats, Tony? Just because from the data I've seen, the immigrant/emigrant data seems around equal. That doesn't undermine your point, but I'm just interested in the wider context of that - yours isn't a standalone point.
I don't think it's in any way humanitarian or the sign of a developed country to 'be harsh'. I also agree entirely with Jack's statement. However, the problem with that is that it's fine and true to lay blame but doesn't do anything to handle the crisis at this moment in time, it's all reflective.
I genuinely have no idea what we do to fix it, but just want to echo Epic's statement.
There are good options for handling the crisis but none of them will be pursued. That highlights the leadership problem.
The violent groups are merging to work together. They are emboldened by what they (correctly) see as weakness in any opposition. They want to come over to Europe, UK etc. That's why all these people cant be allowed in. It would just be an invasion. There are already thousands of anti-socials just waiting for the opportunity to rise up. You have barbarians outside the gate and inside the gate. Of course they will inevitably link up. You already see that now with radicalized people going back and forth between Europe and Syria etc.
That highlights the feebleness of the opposition. Turkey is supporting IS/Daesh. They get them arms and let memebers travel through Turkey to join terror groups. Why is a NATO member country allowed to do this? Why is the EU's response a move to rush Turkey's entry into EU? This is all crazy. Turkey has turned on Ataturk legacy. The military leaders who kept Turkey moderate were thrown in jail. They've taken a new and dangerous direction and other NATO/EU countries have chosen to either ignore the problem or help make it worse on purpose (Obama).
The violent groups are proliferating in Mid East/Maghreb because they are allowed to. They aren't supermen and could be stopped. There's no reason they should be allowed to take over whole regions and drive people into Europe. Unfortunately there are elements in the West that would like to see this and thats a reason they allow the groups to flourish. They expect a wishy-washy West to help do itself in and they are correct. That's why we are well on the way to global war - this time with nukes. While people want to end military spending so they can expand "daycare" while their enemies are growing, and ready to hit them right between the eyes. Happens any day now.
"German deputy speaker: NATO must stop Turkey support for ISIS"
If I were in dire straits in SE Asia, and had the means to get on a boat to Australia, that poster would not deter me. Hell, if the poster said that Australian authorities would shoot anyone who arrived in Australian waters without a visa, it would not deter me. If Australia installed a ginormous sci-fi dome/shield thing around her that *sllloooowwwwllly* fried anyone who passed it without a visa... I *might* be deterred from getting on the boat.
it's funny that i can actually reply to you with posters shown in SE asia. based tony abbot stopping the boats. except he ****ed everything else up... but but illegal immigration, man!!!
We should all be lucky we are in a position to go "Why are these people coming here?", rather than being someone so desperate they are willing to risk life and limb to go to a country that may chuck them out when they get there.
Never forget what you are for the rest of the world will not.
Wear it like armor and it can never be used to hurt you
We should all be lucky we are in a position to go "Why are these people coming here?", rather than being someone so desperate they are willing to risk life and limb to go to a country that may chuck them out when they get there.
Sure - but more than a fair few would like to chuck you out (worse actually) - and they are increasinlgy excited about their chances.
Now Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is publicly telling voters he wants to conquer Jeruslaem and Spain - saying he is some reincarnation of Tariq Bin Ziad, the conqueror of Spain, Alp Arslan, and Saladin. This is coming from a NATO nation leader.
Its like watching the 1930s again except this time the crazies will have nukes and the West is very feeble and self-absorbed in superficialities. As a famous historian once said "Great civilisations don't die they commit suicide"
I can't imagine how desperate these people must be to even consider making that treacherous journey, some with infants and children. And I'm glad other EU countries have finally stepped up to help the Italians in rescuing them. An Irish naval vessel was sent to the Mediterranean on the 16th of May and has rescued 100's of migrants in the short time they've been there and most people I've spoken to about it are proud of that :) I don't think its right to turn our backs on people who clearly feel they are in an impossible situation that thankfully most of us will never experience. In the case of my country, our citizens have been emigrating to other countries both legally and illegally for decades, centuries even, many of whom died on the so called 'coffin ships' and for the most part were welcomed and given the possibility of a better life, I think it would be hypocritical of us to deny the same help to those making this perilous and potentially fatal journey now.
Be kind - everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle
Late response, Dreaming, but without being able to quote exact sources, I seem to remember the government admitting not long ago that last year the UK had 200,000 more immigrants than emigrants - enough to form a whole new city. We surely can't go on like this. We're already over-crowded as a country, never mind the extra demands on our infrastructure that such numbers make ... I favour a solution such as Australia chooses - and they've got vastly more room than we have. But of course the EU dictates here, not our own government.
Probably nothing would deter me, Epic. I don't blame the legal or illegal immigrants, but we're already greatly over-populated and we cannot just continue to see our numbers swell as a result of influences beyond our control. We have surely to start by introducing properly effective border controls - only yesterday some 60-odd were caught trying to get in, smuggled by Polish truck drivers, but only a fraction of vehicles are properly checked and God knows what the scale of this sort of thing really is.
All good (and difficult) questions, THE WORLD. I don't see any easy solutions, but somehow effective border controls must be put in place even though they'll be expensive. I'm clear however that is not our actual responsibility to make good the horrors which exist in the countries where immigrants are coming from - we don't rule the world and we already contribute huge sums of overseas aid, not all of which is properly or honestly dispensed.
Tony.
PS. Since you're now THE WORLD surely you can do something about it?
Well, Irene, I don't doubt that many potential immigrants could, by their ability, be of benefit to the country. But if they come in illegally there is no way of determining that. And if they are legal who is to decide if they are "worthy" or not? And how long would that take?
The whole thing is a can of worms and, in my book, we simply cannot go on accepting (voluntarily or not) the sheer numbers involved. We are grossly overpopulated for God's sake. How many more enclaves of whatever sect can we absorb - at the expense of our native population or our infrastructure?
There really has to be an effective halt to this and I don't care if people call me racist or narrow-minded for saying so. With the possible exception of Belgium I think we already have more people per square kilometre than anywhere else in Europe (I daresay someone will correct me). Are we going to end up standing on each other's heads just for room?
Do we now take our share of the immigrants along with the rest of Europe? Poor bloody Italy is being swamped, as is Greece. But we in UK are already grossly overpopulated and reeling under our own immigration problem.
To ship them back to where they came from would be immensely cruel, but otherwise how else can more and yet more be dissuaded from coming? Absorb the present lot and surely yet more will decide that this is a good solution ...
The question of how to cope with the exodus from N Africa came up on Question Time this evening. It seemed to be agreed that we have a moral obligation to take our share of those who need accommodating. And much of the problem was in any case our fault, vide the Iraq war, the overthrow of Gaddafi, our failure to deal with the Syrian problem, et al.
I remain concerned that what is now a relative trickle is likely to become a positive torrent and that there seems to be no clear way to prevent it. It is blindingly obvious that the more such immigrants succeed in finding a new life in Europe, the more will come. So the problem is really only just beginning, and it will affect all of us.
I think it's important to consider: what would I do if that was my child, my sister, my mother? Yes, the UK is overburdened. But those people are suffering terribly.
As for immigration itself; it's something that's very visible in London. And I very much don't mind immigration; it makes us a much more vibrant world. But I do think benefits and council houses should be limited to UK Nationals. I know there are moves to make benefits only available after a few months or so, but I still think that's too much - we wouldn't get benefits abroad and there are UK Nationals who are homeless or struggling.
It doesn't matter where you come from; it matters where you go.
No-one gets remembered for the things they didn't do.
We won't all be here this time next year,
so while you can take a picture of us.
We're definitely going to hell,
but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
