Will you be ok to wait until next week to ask? If you are allowed to contact them it's definitely ok to do so asap.

Better to get answers to your questions sooner, rather than waiting and agonising over it for days! It is definitely ok to ask. That's what they're there for.

I mean their original rule was not to contact them more than two times in a week and this week has been WAY more than that. And it seems like they cannot really say anything other than not to be dead and just hide. Which not saying I do not appreciate them or their support just like. That is not anything new and I feel guilty for taking so much of their time.

Did they change the rule so that you're now allowed more contact? I think if you need contact and it would help then it shouldn't be refused. I understand feeling guilty though. Would you feel able to say that you need something more than to be told not to be dead and to hide instead?

I am unsure about the rule. They did not say if they changed it or not.

I think the problem is that they are not a therapist human, so saying things other than not to be dead or hide might be therapist human things. I could be wrong. I am not trying to be ungrateful. I really do appreciate them being so nice to us and trying to help.

I would like our therapist human to come back now and help. Things are not okay.

It's a shame that your therapist isn't there for you now. I hope you can meet with the new therapist and build up a positive relationship.

Unsure when that is meant to occur. Case manager human emailed us and said the next time we see them is the 22nd. They have not mentioned anything about a new therapist human. The 22nd is far away.

They said they are not mad and that if they ask strange or "challenging" questions it is because they want us to be safe. Potentially wording that wrong.

They also apparently talked to L on the phone. I dislike being talked about. I am not mad. I just dislike being talked about.

Thoughts and urges to self harm or overdose to at least put off being dead are not going away. Being dead feels like the only option. I was going to self harm last night but then my dog came in the bathroom with me and refused to leave. Nothing is okay.

Like I've said, I think it's really important to ask your case manager about when you're meeting with the therapist. They want to support you and I don't think they would mind you asking that - it's better you ask than you miss an appointment.

And yes, your case manager did talk to me, but remember they did ask you first and you asked me if that was okay with me first and then gave them my contact info, so it also was something you agreed to and all of us were aware of. If you remember, I also explained what we talked about which is that they wanted to get an idea of what's going on for you lately, and ideas of what might be useful since they haven't worked with you enough to be able to read between the lines and you can say things kind of cryptically. They spoke to me because they want to make sure that they're understanding you and doing the best they can for you, obviously with the limitations of being a case manager not therapist.

They really want to help, and I think asking them for what you need, whether that's to know when you're meant to meet with the therapist or whether that's needing to sort out additional support before the 22nd, would be a really good idea. They want to help, if you're willing to let them. I know trying new things and meeting new people and trying to trust people is hard, but I truly believe it will be worth the initial discomfort. I think your case manager thinks that too. You just have to be willing to try to work with your case manager and try to work with the new therapist even though it's really hard and you would prefer your last therapist of that were an option. Since it's not, and she's gone, the next step is trying with the new therapist.

Hello yes ^^ is L and they are awesome if not obvious.

I agree with everything L has said. I get that it's uncomfortable having people talking about you, but it sounds like you did agree to that and that everyone involved was just desperately trying to share information in order for you to get the right help.

How are you today and what are your plans this week?

I don't have anything helpful to say but I am thinking of you.

Well so nobody actually asked me if I was okay with it. They asked for L's number, L said it was okay to give them their number, so I did. That does not make it optional and that did not involve asking if I was okay with it. I am not at all mad and I already told L this. I trust L and I do not mind them telling the case manager human things. I just dislike being talked about.

I was thirty minutes late for my horse job this morning. There was a dog running loose down the street and I stopped and they came to me and jumped in my car and then we drove around until we found the dog's human because their tags did not list any information other than "for more info about me google this number." The human said the dog's name was Piper and I am really glad that Piper was able to go home but why did nobody else stop? Why did nobody else see Piper running alone down the sidewalk and stop? I really hope I do not get in trouble for having been late or have the human I work for get mad.

Unsure about this week. I honestly do not see how I am not going to be dead. Urges and thoughts are not going away. There are multiple other things occurring that I have no idea how to handle. I understand that humans are nice and that they care and that there are rules but that does not make things go away or be okay.

Do you see why we both interpreted the sequence of events as you being okay with it though? They asked if they could, you asked me if I was okay with it, I said yes, and you gave them my info. Could you see why your doing that would make it seem like you were okay with that, vs if you had said 'actually wait, I'm not okay with this and I have some questions' or just saying no? I think both your case manager and I would have been fine with you saying no or asking questions, but you not saying no or asking questions and just giving them my information and voicing no concerns made it come across as you being fine with it. Does that make sense? It's okay to say no and ask for what you need!

I hope this week goes better and I really hope you're able to ask your case manager for appointment info and more support if you need it.

They said "Would you give me L's phone number so I could try to talk to them"
I showed you what they said. You said "I mean you can give it to them? Did they say why?"
Then I did.

That definitely does not involve asking me if I am okay with it. It did not seem optional at all. I really am not mad. I just do not understand why you keep saying I somehow could have said no (not that I would have said no) when it was not stated as optional. If either of you had asked if I was okay with it and I said yes that would be different. That never occurred. I am not not okay with it. I just dislike being talked about. I am unsure how to explain the difference.

I emailed them and told them you said to ask about a new therapist human but given they said the 22nd that is what we are going with and I do not want them to kick us out for breaking rules or make them mad.

No I see why you feel that way, I'm just trying to explain why, to people other than you, it's implied that if it's something you aren't okay with you can say no or voice concerns. I'm sorry it sounds like you weren't okay with it. I don't think it was anyone's goal to do something you weren't okay with and I'm sorry that's what happened. To explain more in depth, so you can use this info in the future, the social cues you gave (not saying no to your case manager and in fact going along with it when they asked and then asking me if I was okay with it and then giving my info to them) are all social cues that would indicate being okay with it. Social cues that would indicate not being okay with it, and things to use in the future if you are not okay with something, might be things like, if they ask you 'would you give me info to speak to xyz person' you could say something like 'no' or 'can I have some more information about why you want to speak to xyz person' or 'yes but only about these specific things' or 'okay but I want to know specifically what you talk about after' etc.

In a typical conversational pattern it's actually expected to speak up if you don't want to do what someone's asking, not just do everything that indicates it's actually okay when it isn't. You're in voluntary treatment with your case manager, and aside from the agreements you've made with them, everything is up to you and you can and should ALWAYS speak up if you aren't okay with something. It might turn out that it's not optional, but the vast majority of things in voluntary treatment are options, you just have to speak up. It sounds like it would be clearer and easier for you if people stopped and asked at every step, and you can ask folks to do that, too. It's just that it's kind of conversational shorthand that if you don't say no and go along with what is being asked, people will read that as you being okay with it.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I can see where the confusion happened and you aren't wrong, it's just I think that there's some gaps in knowing that you're totally able to say no even if it's not asked. I'm pretty sure this is something we actually discussed a few months ago when your case manager asked you something else, that you can say no when someone asks you something, and I explained multiple examples of times that I personally have done so and how people expect that. I apologise that it wasn't clear enough to you, and that's why I'm trying to explain why your case manager and I both understood it as being okay when it sounds like that's not what you meant to be communicating, so you know how to make clear your wishes if it ever comes up again (which I doubt it will).

I'm continuing to try to explain this because I want to make sure you understand your rights (being able to say no unless you are told it's not optional) and responsibilities (speaking up for your needs and wants) when it comes to treatment so you can best advocate for yourself and your needs. The best way to get what you need is to make sure that you're actually communicating what you want people to know, even if they aren't asking constantly. Unfortunately in this situation it sounds like the way we understood what you were communicating is not what you meant to be communicating, and I want you to have the skills and knowledge to make sure you feel able to advocate for yourself in the future if you don't want something.

I hope they are able to clarify about the therapist for you. I know it's kind of confusing since you have two different cards with different dates and times on them, and that's why I think clarifying was a good idea. It's totally possible it is the 22nd but given you have another card with other dates, and you aren't sure what those dates are, it's definitely best to make sure because missing appointments would be bad.

Generally any time treatment providers say things are optional and I say no is when I get kicked out. I really do not want them to kick us out. They are nice and you are nice and we trust both of you so it is okay that you talked I just dislike being talked about.


Today is supposed to be a day to see our therapist human and she is still gone. I want to be dead now but I do not know if I can deal with being dead in this body. Unsure what to do. My compromise did not help with putting it off.

How did you manage last Monday? Mondays will be hard for a while but I think they will get easier.

I don't remember. That was the day I lost time but our case manager human said we saw them.

What safe options do you have for trying to cope with today?

Unsure. We have been hiding but my compromise did not work and our case manager human has not replied to the other emails so it does not seem like we should bother them and send another email.